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New Hybrid Attempt: C Hawaiian Wedding Song 'Virgin' x Clty Chantilly Lace 'Twinkle'

This is a discussion on New Hybrid Attempt: C Hawaiian Wedding Song 'Virgin' x Clty Chantilly Lace 'Twinkle' within the Breeding & Hybridization forums, part of the Orchid Propagation category; Originally Posted by pavel Good luck, John. Out of curiosity -- any 'method to your ...

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  1. #11
    wetfeet101b's Avatar
    wetfeet101b is offline It's not dead! It's just permanently dormant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavel View Post
    Good luck, John. Out of curiosity -- any 'method to your madness' in deciding to have Wedding be the pod parent vs being pollen donor?
    Paul, my "method" is explained in my second post after the original message. Although it is not guaranteed, one can hope that those are the traits passed on by the parents.
    With thousands of possible genetic pairings, who knows what will really end up manifesting on the flowers. I wont even be surprised if I end up with dark purple flowers with white spots lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron-NY
    Another suggestion would be to put the date of pollination on the tag as well
    That is a good idea Ron. I cant believe I missed that. I did note the pollination date in my notebook but not on the tag. I will do that tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron-NY
    Sometimes when there is a big difference in the flower size the pollen grains are also sized accordingly. Putting big grains on a small flower might not have worked.
    You may be right Ron. Besides, the single pollinia of the Wedding Song was much bigger than the entire stigma of the Chantily. I dont think it would have made it inside the stigma if I tried the opposite.

    I have also been hearing rumors that the seed parent has a greater chance of passing on the flower size - although I cannot confirm this until I actually get some hybrids to bloom.

    Regarding the flasking process, I have not yet decided if I will attempt to do this myself or just hire a lab to do it for me. I have seen some labs with reasonable rates.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wetfeet101b View Post
    Paul, my "method" is explained in my second post after the original message. Although it is not guaranteed, one can hope that those are the traits passed on by the parents.
    With thousands of possible genetic pairings, who knows what will really end up manifesting on the flowers. I wont even be surprised if I end up with dark purple flowers with white spots lol.



    That is a good idea Ron. I cant believe I missed that. I did note the pollination date in my notebook but not on the tag. I will do that tomorrow.



    You may be right Ron. Besides, the single pollinia of the Wedding Song was much bigger than the entire stigma of the Chantily. I dont think it would have made it inside the stigma if I tried the opposite.

    I have also been hearing rumors that the seed parent has a greater chance of passing on the flower size - although I cannot confirm this until I actually get some hybrids to bloom.

    Regarding the flasking process, I have not yet decided if I will attempt to do this myself or just hire a lab to do it for me. I have seen some labs with reasonable rates.

    I had caught the 2nd post you referred to but as far as traits go, it seems that your hoped for traits would have been the same either way. Now the "rumor" you mentioned was more along the line of speculation I was thinking about. There are such things as sex-linked traits, but I have no idea what ones might be amongst orchids, or if there are such things amongst them.

  3. #13
    wetfeet101b's Avatar
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    It would be nice if there is a genome map somewhere that would give us data like this:
    1. Flower size = dictated by seed parent.
    2. Flower color = dictated by pollen parent.
    etc. etc.
    3. Leaf size = seed parent + pollen parent / (abs(seed parent number of leaves / pollen parent number of leaves))

    But that is probably too much to ask given that our orchids are still being rearranged taxonomically with no end in sight.

    Right now, what we have is:
    "Hmm. I crossed the exacted same parents last time and I got the exact opposite result".

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by wetfeet101b View Post
    It would be nice if there is a genome map somewhere that would give us data like this:
    1. Flower size = dictated by seed parent.
    2. Flower color = dictated by pollen parent.
    etc. etc.
    3. Leaf size = seed parent + pollen parent / (abs(seed parent number of leaves / pollen parent number of leaves))

    But that is probably too much to ask given that our orchids are still being rearranged taxonomically with no end in sight.

    Right now, what we have is:
    "Hmm. I crossed the exacted same parents last time and I got the exact opposite result".
    I *think* that because orchids are in such a state of evolution, almost anything is possible and nothing is going to be for certain in regards to how it is going to work each and every time a cross is made. So, I suppose it is kind of like gambling. heh...Only, usually not as risky.

    Cheers,
    BD

  5. #15
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    It IS like gambling. The only difference is that if you play your cards right, you end up with hundreds of consolation prizes even if you "lose".

    I was reading about some of the hybrid efforts in the 60's. One breeder produced hundreds of offspring for a cross that were enough to fill 7 large greenhouses.
    Once they bloomed, he then chose ONE as the stud plant moving forward and destroyed all the siblings.
    This was their attempt to ensure that no inferior versions of the hybrid exists.
    It may seem harsh but it looks like that was the common practice among the elite breeders.

    "Can't get emotional about these plants. Our goal was to produce the best offspring and go from there. We can't risk an inferior clone coming back into the gene pool".

    I wonder if I will have the same objectivity when the time comes.

  6. #16
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    Very interesting post. Thank you for it! I'm impatient to find out what's follow-up. I didn't know that Catt has four polinia. I polinated just Phalaenopsis, and my flowers had just two.
    Anyway, please keep us up-to-date!

    Hori

  7. #17
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    Bad news.
    The seed pod is turning yellow and the flower is just wilting as normal. Its a pretty good indication that the pollination did not work.
    Perhaps none of the pollen made it into the ovary or maybe the two hybrids are simply incompatible.

  8. #18
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    Everything we do is a learning process. Now you have experience to take to the next round of pollination. Keep trying!

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    Sorry to here that...I only succeed with about 50% of the crosses I attempt. If ploidy was compatible then the cross should have been compatible. Although if ploidy wasn't usually you still get a pod with little or no seed. Sometimes age of the pollen and pod parent flower can be a problem. I also sometimes crush the pollina to release the pollen grains.

    It is my understanding that fragrance is pod parent dependent .

    The flower will wilt quickly if you remove it's pollen. Therefore, I like to keep it intact on the pod parent to allow enough time for the fertilization to take.


    Quote Originally Posted by wetfeet101b View Post
    Bad news.
    The seed pod is turning yellow and the flower is just wilting as normal. Its a pretty good indication that the pollination did not work.
    Perhaps none of the pollen made it into the ovary or maybe the two hybrids are simply incompatible.

  10. #20
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    Here is one cross that I am awaiting pod maturation on, cross was made 2/17/08... This one I am excited about for I may get to name the intergeneric name as well...I can not find any Angulocaste x Maxillaria crosses recorded and there does not appear to be an intergeneric name for this combo. I also did a Maxillocaste cross around the same time and that pod is also still maturing. These are the first non Catt, non Paph croses I have made. This year I also crossed a Neof falcata onto my Hologlossum wangii, looking forward to eventually see what comes of that.





    Here is the developing pod of Bl Richard Mueller onto Blc. Mem. Helen Brown 'Sweet Afton' that I just made. looks like this one took. The flower has faded and the ovary is starting to swell. It will be 5-6 months until I harvest the pod

    Last edited by Ron-NY; September 16th, 2008 at 11:22 AM.

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