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Chromosome counts and classification

This is a discussion on Chromosome counts and classification within the Breeding & Hybridization forums, part of the Orchid Propagation category; Sorry, I meant 76, not 72. 2 x 38 = 76....

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  1. #11
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    Sorry, I meant 76, not 72. 2 x 38 = 76.

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    I just read Sue's answer. In the middle of work it took me awhile to answer and by then Sue had proven me wrong. Ha, ha.

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    I hope I didn't confure the issue more. :-)
    Not at all, Alex; thank you. I know next to nothing about this part of orchid growing. I appreciate the chance to learn.

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    Originally posted by amaximia
    The problem is, I believe, different specimens of the same species are measured many times at different chromosome counts, independent of poliploidy.
    Yeah, that's why I only stuck with counts which were consistent across the species in my examples above. Not that I think you were saying that my numbers were wrong; I'm just pointing out that the Oncidium genus really does seem to have a real problem. Anyway.

    Lastly, it seems species with different chromosome counts can cross very rarely. This is bizarre.
    Do you mean rare in nature, or in hybridizing? (I'm looking at Orchid Biology: Reviews and Perspectives, v.III, Arditti 1984) The Paphs have a few different standard chromosome counts. Do these correspond to breeding incompatabilities? I don't know enough about Paph breeding to know.

    I do have a seedpod maturing right now from Phaius tankervilla var. alba x Calanthe vestita var. fournerii. The Phaius I've seen listed as 2n=46; the Calanthe as 2n=42.

    So with n = 23 from the pod and n=21 from the pollen, the resulting Phaiocalanthe ought to be 2n=44. So it might even be fertile!

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    Yes, I had noticed that before with the PhaioCalanthe hybrids. I cannot understand it. There must be something which makes these crosses possible. But what? This is a mystery to me.

    Consider PhaioCalanthe Kryptonite, a popular hybrid. This is Calanthe Rozel x Phaius grandifolius var. alba. I've heard the hybridizer was unable to recreate this hybrid by doing the same cross. Also, it is completely sterile. It will not self-pollinate. I believe the only way to recreate it is by cloning.

    I wonder what makes it possible? And why did it only work once?

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    Is Phaiocalanthe really such a rare case? I hadn't thought it was, but perhaps I'm wrong . . .

    You know; one thing which really weirded me out is that I found a registered hybrid between Onc. cebolleta (a rat-tail oncid) and Onc. papilio (syn. Psychopsis). That just seems wrong to me. By the way, I've got pollen stored from a rat-tail of mine, in case anybody (with a Psychopsis) wants to try a cross like that one.

    But seriously; what about the Paphs? Could you check that out sometime? Or if you don't know enough offhand about Paph breeding, maybe I could just post a (small) selection of species with their chromosome counts and ask Peter and Louis about it.

    Well, anyway. Let me know.

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    ...ask Peter and Louis about it
    Ask about what?

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    The question was whether the differences in chromosome numbers among Paphs are reflected in the history of their breeding – i.e., whether it is known that the combinations of some groups does not produce fertile offspring.

    Here are some species names and 2n counts. Maybe you or Peter will know enough to be able to draw some conclusions . . .

    Paph. 2n=26
    bellatulum
    boxallii
    charlesworthii
    delenatii
    fairieanum
    hirsutissimum
    insigne
    laevigatum
    lowii
    niveum
    parishii
    philippinense
    rothschildianum
    stonei

    2n=28
    hookerae

    2n=30
    spicerianum
    villosum

    2n=32
    callosum
    mastersianum

    2n=34
    dayanum
    Maudiae

    2n=36
    glaucophyllum
    javanicum
    lawrenceanum

    2n=38
    superbiens

    2n=40
    sukhakulii

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    I'm going to let Peter field this one; I just don't know enough about the breeding histories to offer anything useful... Sorry....

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    Sorry, can't help you guys there, not into breeding really!

    Jason, any ideas/input?

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