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How to name a cross?

This is a discussion on How to name a cross? within the Breeding & Hybridization forums, part of the Orchid Propagation category; All very good explanations. I would also just point out that 'Single Quotes' clonal names ...

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  1. #11
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    All very good explanations. I would also just point out that 'Single Quotes' clonal names are supposed to refer to an awarded clone, and "Double Quotes" are used to refer to an unawarded clone. Sometimes the award isnt listed because they didn't have the award info handy at the time of typing it, other times (often) people misuse the single and double quotes. As far as the unawarded clones, some plants are obvious award or breeding quality but don't make it in to judging for whatever reason (blooming at a different time, grower couldn't go, etc.), but are exceptional and need to have some kind of name for reference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloamey View Post
    The second scenario I would like to mention involves people like me, living in countries which do not have a functioning orchid society. So even if I bloom a new hybrid or a old hybrid or a species exceptionally well, I cannot take it to judging and get it awarded What do I do then.
    Amey, my heart goes out to you here. I've seen pics of some of your amazing specimens...plants that would be awarded for sure if they were here in the US. I kept up reading that thread you posted about possibly judging via photo, and I saw that you had gotten the advice of chopping off your bloom spike and shipping it to the US for judging, or possibly sending the whole plant while it is bloom...neither of which seem to me like they would be reasonable solutions, for obvious reasons.

    It must be exceedingly frustrating to have such amazing, quality orchids blooming under your care, but having absolutely no way of getting them awarded. I hope your country develops some sort of functioning orchid society in the future, so you can have your beauties awarded as they deserve to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gage View Post
    All very good explanations. I would also just point out that 'Single Quotes' clonal names are supposed to refer to an awarded clone, and "Double Quotes" are used to refer to an unawarded clone. Sometimes the award isn't listed because they didn't have the award info handy at the time of typing it, other times (often) people misuse the single and double quotes. As far as the unawarded clones, some plants are obvious award or breeding quality but don't make it in to judging for whatever reason (blooming at a different time, grower couldn't go, etc.), but are exceptional and need to have some kind of name for reference.
    Ahhh...thanks for clarifying that, Gage!

    As far as the double-quotes thing goes...I'm assuming that type of naming would apply for a particular plant I have. I acquired a Phal lobbii that, for whatever reason, has longer spikes with multiple blooms on them, instead of the typical extremely short spike with one flower. It would be neat to be able to make a clone of that available for people, so I'm assuming this would be one of those cases where I could put a cultivar name in double-quotes, since the plant is notably different than other varieties, but it has not yet been awarded (I'm hoping to get it awarded at some point). I have seen bloom pics of this clone, but have not yet had mine flower. As far as I know, it is unnamed. I asked the person who I bought it from if it had a clonal name, but I got no response back. It was just listed as "Phalaenopsis lobbii," with pics of the branching spikes, and the description of the plant said it was a particularly unusual clone with branching spikes.

    QUESTION:
    I don't yet have the resources to get this plant cloned on a large-scale (or even small-scale) basis. So let's say, for the time being, I give this plant a name in double-quotes to differentiate it from the other lobbi types. Then, later on it gets awarded and I register it and change the double quotes to single quotes. Then I'd like to be able to make it available to others.

    Since I have no means for stem prop or lab cloning, if I did a "selfing" of this plant to make some more available, would I then be able to call the progeny by the same name as the parent plant (listing it with single or double quotes depending on its award status)? Or does it have to be a tissue clone or stem prop to carry the same name?

    Thanks for the clarifications!! You guys are awesome!!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gage View Post
    All very good explanations. I would also just point out that 'Single Quotes' clonal names are supposed to refer to an awarded clone, and "Double Quotes" are used to refer to an unawarded clone. Sometimes the award isnt listed because they didn't have the award info handy at the time of typing it, other times (often) people misuse the single and double quotes. As far as the unawarded clones, some plants are obvious award or breeding quality but don't make it in to judging for whatever reason (blooming at a different time, grower couldn't go, etc.), but are exceptional and need to have some kind of name for reference.
    Not so. Single quotes denote a clonal name, period. While all awarded clones must be given a clonal name, not all named clones are awarded. Commercial growers name all the clones they choose to reproduce, to distinguish them from others. In a different forum, I could name any number of commercial vendors who sell unawarded named clones that they have chosen to reproduce and market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    It would be neat to be able to make a clone of that available for people, so I'm assuming this would be one of those cases where I could put a cultivar name in double-quotes, since the plant is notably different than other varieties, but it has not yet been awarded (I'm hoping to get it awarded at some point). I have seen bloom pics of this clone, but have not yet had mine flower. As far as I know, it is unnamed. I asked the person who I bought it from if it had a clonal name, but I got no response back. It was just listed as "Phalaenopsis lobbii," with pics of the branching spikes, and the description of the plant said it was a particularly unusual clone with branching spikes.

    QUESTION:
    I don't yet have the resources to get this plant cloned on a large-scale (or even small-scale) basis. So let's say, for the time being, I give this plant a name in double-quotes to differentiate it from the other lobbi types. Then, later on it gets awarded and I register it and change the double quotes to single quotes. Then I'd like to be able to make it available to others.

    Since I have no means for stem prop or lab cloning, if I did a "selfing" of this plant to make some more available, would I then be able to call the progeny by the same name as the parent plant (listing it with single or double quotes depending on its award status)? Or does it have to be a tissue clone or stem prop to carry the same name?

    Thanks for the clarifications!! You guys are awesome!!
    See previous re: single/double quotes. If you self your plant, it would be P. lobbii. It would be proper to put the same clonal name on another plant only if were reproduced asexually (mericlone, stem prop, etc.) Again, single quotes denote a clonal name. Double quotes have no official implication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Saar View Post
    See previous re: single/double quotes. If you self your plant, it would be P. lobbii. It would be proper to put the same clonal name on another plant only if were reproduced asexually (mericlone, stem prop, etc.) Again, single quotes denote a clonal name. Double quotes have no official implication.
    Ahh, thanks Michael!! So, double quotes don't really mean anything, and single quotes mean it's a clonal name. It doesn't matter if it's awarded; it just means it's a clone. That then distinguishes that particular plant from the other plants that vendor sells. So, any seller can name any clone whatever they like, so long as it's a clone.

    So if I see names in single quotations, that means the plant is an asexually produced clone. Therefore, the name of a seedling that is produced from a cloned plant cannot carry the clonal name, even if it is a "selfing" of that clone.

    I think I get it now! YAY!!

    Thanks for clearing all this up, friends!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Saar View Post
    Not so. Single quotes denote a clonal name, period. While all awarded clones must be given a clonal name, not all named clones are awarded. Commercial growers name all the clones they choose to reproduce, to distinguish them from others. In a different forum, I could name any number of commercial vendors who sell unawarded named clones that they have chosen to reproduce and market.
    Thanks Michael. I may have been misinformed.

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    Oh, sorry...one more thing...if an awarded plant is asexually cloned, all clones of that plant will also carry the award next to the clonal name, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    Oh, sorry...one more thing...if an awarded plant is asexually cloned, all clones of that plant will also carry the award next to the clonal name, right?
    I think so!
    At least in Europe vendors sell mericloned awarded plants with the clone name.

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    And in Europe I think you have to give a plant a clone name to enter an exibition. The vendors thereby get clone name on all their exibition plants. And as the same plant can be awarded several times by different society a plant can have several Europeen awards... Plants can even be handed in and be awarded at the same show but in different years (in Europe).

    Though I have only seen the AOS award mentioned when plants are sold, not the Europeen awards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    Ahh, thanks Michael!! So, double quotes don't really mean anything, and single quotes mean it's a clonal name. It doesn't matter if it's awarded; it just means it's a clone. That then distinguishes that particular plant from the other plants that vendor sells. So, any seller can name any clone whatever they like, so long as it's a clone.

    So if I see names in single quotations, that means the plant is an asexually produced clone. Therefore, the name of a seedling that is produced from a cloned plant cannot carry the clonal name, even if it is a "selfing" of that clone.

    I think I get it now! YAY!!

    Thanks for clearing all this up, friends!!
    Actually, that is an incorrect grasp of the situation. Sorry.

    The moniker in the single quotes is the cultivar epithet, where cultivar is short for "cultivated variety". It is simply used to distinguish one particular plant from another of the same species or cross. Whether it is from a sexually- or asexually reproduced source is irrelevant. I think the confusion is that we often refer to that as the "clonal name".

    In the "plant 1 and plant 2" example given above, the '1' and '2' would be the cultivar names, no different than 'First Rays' and 'OrchidGirl' could be.

    Basically, ANYONE can assign a cultivar name to a plant if they choose to do so. It is unethical to change it, if one already has been given. If that plant is asexually reproduced (divided or replicated from meristematic tissue - cloned), its duplicates will continue to carry that name. If any of them get an other-than-cultural award (those are really given to the grower, not the plant), that award is applicable to all of them. In the case of an award, the plant MUST be given a cultuvar epithet, to distinguish it from others of the same species or cross.

    If that plant is used in sexual reproduction, the cultivar name does not apply to the offspring, and any awards do not apply, either.

    One last thing - in your first post you said something to the effect of "they are seedlings, not clones". How do you know that? If the vendor is selling Phal. Corona 'Lemon Bomb' plants that are true clones, but simply small plants, they would be indistinguishable from sexually-reproduced Phal. Corona seedlings. Again I view the confusion as being terminology-based: "seedling" is often used to mean "small, immature plants", and not necessarily to indicate "grown from seed". Unless you know that vendor to be unknowing or disreputable, you're probably OK to trust that they are clones of the original plant.

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