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How to name a cross?

This is a discussion on How to name a cross? within the Breeding & Hybridization forums, part of the Orchid Propagation category; Hi everyone! I am hoping to someday have some beautiful crosses to name, and I'm ...

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  1. #1
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    Question How to name a cross?

    Hi everyone!

    I am hoping to someday have some beautiful crosses to name, and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the confusing topic of how naming works. For example, I recently saw an auction for a plant called "Phalaenopsis Corona." It's a new cross, recently registered apparently, of cornu-cervi x amboinensis. This particular grex was called "Lemon Bomb."

    It has an adorable flower, and the grower states it was created using the alba forms of both parents (although I think he meant flava, since they're bright yellow flowers).

    Now, I actually happen to have these two parent plants. If I were to cross my cornu-cervi var. flava and amboinensis var. flava, would I be able to sell my plant as the "Lemon Bomb" because I used the same two parents (in other words, because I used the flava forms instead of the regular forms?)

    Or does the "Lemon Bomb" name ONLY apply to the batch of plants resulting from that breeder's two parent plants?

    If I did the same cross and came up with similar flowers, would I have to name mine something else? I know it would still be a Phal Corona, but would I have to drop the "Lemon Bomb" and call it "Phalaenopsis Corona: Yellow Sun" or something? I'm a bit confused about how the grex name works.

    By the way, the batch of plants this seller is calling "Lemon Bomb" are seedlings, not clones, so I know it's not a clonal name. Is the "Lemon Bomb" name proprietary to his two parent plants in this case?

    Thanks, folks! I'm actually considering crossing these two to make some of these Coronas...they're quite charming!

    I'm looking forward to learning about how this all works!

  2. #2
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    Phal Corona 'Lemon Bomb' appears to be grex Corona and clonal name 'Lemon Bomb'. Seedlings under that listing might be others from the same cross (grex)--which would make them siblings to Lemon Bomb; or sometimes sellers use seedling as a size, vs a literal seedling.

    I did a quick websearch, and the listing I found showed Phal Corona 'Lemon Bomb' but the plants for sale said seedlings of the same cross (Corona)...ie, not 'Lemon Bomb' but its siblings (who may or may not look like it).

    So, if I understand this all correctly, you could remake the Corona cross, and hope to get similar flowers, but they would not be 'Lemon Bomb'. Who knows, you might even get something better, and get to give it your own name!

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    1. Any hybrids made using P. amboinensis x P. cornu-cervi (or P. cornu-cervi x P. amboinensis) will have the grex name P. Corona. (The grex was registered in 1973).
    2. As used here, "Lemon Bomb" has no official standing. You might call the plants created using his two parents the "Lemon Bomb Strain" or something, but again, no official standing.
    3. One particular plant might be given the clonal name 'Lemon Bomb', but there is no registry for clonal names other than trademark or patent.
    4. If you made the cross using your parent plants, it would still be P. corona.
    This seller is misusing the name 'Lemon Bomb', or at least using it in a confusing or misleading way, (I found his listing). The name 'Lemon Bomb' in single quotes indicates a clonal name, used only for a single plant or any copy of that plant (reproduced asexually).
    This is not a "new hybrid" as he states, but a hybrid made using forms of the parents that were probably unavailable at the time the hybrid was originally registered.
    Hope this clears up your questions.

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    Here is an article that Louis published that might be of interest to you. Orchid Names and Naming | River Valley Orchidworks

    cheers,
    BD

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    Thanks everybody!! That's quite helpful! I really appreciate you taking the time to do the search and find the listing. I was quite confused by the fact that the guy said he had seedlings from the same cross, but he was calling them all 'Lemon Bomb.' I was totally mixed up!

    Thanks for sharing that article, too, Bruce! Very helpful.

    So basically the name 'Lemon Bomb' has no official standing because it does not refer to an actual cloned plant in this case. It would only be appropriate if it were a clone of the original 'Lemon Bomb' plant, yes?

    So as I pursue my dream of breeding orchids, am I right in drawing the conclusion that the only benefit of giving a plant a "nickname" or "clonal name" is for the purposes of cloning that exact plant and mass-marketing it? So, as a breeder, one's goal would be to cross two plants, find a particularly outstanding specimen from that cross, then name it and clone it (hopefully getting it awarded in there somewhere to give the plant some clout). The other plants from the same cross would not be as valuable, because they would only be siblings to the awarded, "nicknamed" plant, and thus could not actually bear that nickname, right?

    As I was doing some research about all of this, I also read that the person who gets to give the plant its 'clonal name' is the person who blooms it first, not necessarily the breeder. I have one Norton Violacea cross that I have particular high hopes for as a breeder. It's an unbloomed cross of two blue clones, labeled ("Violacea 'Peek-a-blue' HCC/AOS x Violacea 'Mademoiselle Bleu' AM/AOS). So if this particular plant blooms out amazing, would I be able to register it with a clonal name, even though I didn't breed it?

    I have aspirations of naming some plants for my kids someday, and I'm trying to figure out what my approach will be to breeding, since breeding anything takes several years before you see blooms, so it pays to think ahead.

    Speaking hypothetically, if I were to cross two species plants that have not been crossed before, resulting in a new primary hybrid, I could then give that hybrid a grex name that would be used for all further crosses of those two species plants, correct? So if I wanted to name one for my son, it would make more sense to try and cross two species plants that have not yet been crossed and registered, because then his name would forever be attached to any plant resulting from that cross, correct? Whereas if I'm giving an existing cross a "clonal name," it would only stand for genetic duplicates of that particular plant.

    I feel like my head is spinning here....pppbbbbbttttt......

    Someone tell me if I'm getting the gist of this, please! And thanks again for your help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    So basically the name 'Lemon Bomb' has no official standing because it does not refer to an actual cloned plant in this case. It would only be appropriate if it were a clone of the original 'Lemon Bomb' plant, yes?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    So as I pursue my dream of breeding orchids, am I right in drawing the conclusion that the only benefit of giving a plant a "nickname" or "clonal name" is for the purposes of cloning that exact plant and mass-marketing it? So, as a breeder, one's goal would be to cross two plants, find a particularly outstanding specimen from that cross, then name it and clone it (hopefully getting it awarded in there somewhere to give the plant some clout). The other plants from the same cross would not be as valuable, because they would only be siblings to the awarded, "nicknamed" plant, and thus could not actually bear that nickname, right?
    Yes, but it is an indication, that this cross has potential of producing quality plants that can be even better than the awarded sibling.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    As I was doing some research about all of this, I also read that the person who gets to give the plant its 'clonal name' is the person who blooms it first, not necessarily the breeder. I have one Norton Violacea cross that I have particular high hopes for as a breeder. It's an unbloomed cross of two blue clones, labeled ("Violacea 'Peek-a-blue' HCC/AOS x Violacea 'Mademoiselle Bleu' AM/AOS). So if this particular plant blooms out amazing, would I be able to register it with a clonal name, even though I didn't breed it?
    Actually the clonal name will stick to your plant only if it is judged and awarded, without that you cannot give it a clonal name and have all the growers in the world accept it. You see it clearly in the names of the parents of the cross. If your clone is shown and is awarded, you can have it named. I think for an awarded clone you can name it straight away even if it was not hybridized by you, but if it is a new hybrid, you need a letter of agreement from the hybridizer, where he/she states that they agree on you giving it the name, or you need some documents proving that the hybridizer is unresponsive to the request at least 2 times or the hybridizer is unknown (like in a case where the retailer from whom you got your plant, cannot trace back from which mass producer he got the plant originally) you will then need a letter of agreement or something similar from the retailer claiming that the hybridizer is unknown.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    Speaking hypothetically, if I were to cross two species plants that have not been crossed before, resulting in a new primary hybrid, I could then give that hybrid a grex name that would be used for all further crosses of those two species plants, correct? So if I wanted to name one for my son, it would make more sense to try and cross two species plants that have not yet been crossed and registered, because then his name would forever be attached to any plant resulting from that cross, correct? Whereas if I'm giving an existing cross a "clonal name," it would only stand for genetic duplicates of that particular plant.
    Yes

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    You ROCK, Amey!!! THANK YOU!!! I'm am so impressed by the wealth of knowledge you have about orchids! Thank you for answering all of my questions individually. I'm new to all of this breeding stuff, and your answers will really help guide my efforts!



    I think, miraculously, I might actually understand this now!!


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    Ooh, wait...there's something I'm still confused on. When I'm browsing around online, I often see plants on websites with cultivar names listed, but no award assigned. So, if the only way to make a cultivar/clonal name "stick" is to get it awarded, what are all these stores doing naming all of their plants? Is it just to make them sound more appealing to people? It seems like it would be misleading, since the cultivar name doesn't really "count."

    I was just looking on a major orchid retailer's site, and they have "nicknamed" pretty much all of their plants...awarded or not. One example is listed as the following: Dtps. Tying Shin Fantastic World 'Star Wars.' Then, underneath it, it shows the actual cross as (Dtps. Chian Xen Pearl x Phal. Timothy Christopher). So in this case, the Fantastic World title would stick, because it's the grex name for the cross of the Chian Xen Pearl x Phal. Timothy Christopher, right? But the 'Star Wars' cultivar name means pretty much nothing, because there's no award for this plant, correct? So they're just sticking the 'Star Wars' name on the plant to make it sound neat so people will buy it?

    As for the implications of what this means for me and breeding/labeling....

    I recently purchased a Phalaenopsis Pulcherrima Coerulea 'Indigo Bunting' HCC/AOS. In this case, I know that the 'Indigo Bunting' name is official, since it has the awards next to it, right? And I could therefore list it as a parent using the 'Indigo Bunting' HCC/AOS name on the label for the cross.

    But then I saw another blue variation on the Pulcherrima, which looked light it might be a more brilliant blue. I bought it on auction. The name listed was Doritis Pulcherrima var coerulea subvar chomporensis ('Indigo Ink' x self). Does the 'Indigo Ink' name here mean nothing because it has not been awarded? Is this just this particular grower's "pet name" for his plant, and thus not really usable on a label?

    Hypothetically, if I were to use this plant for breeding, would I be able to use the 'Indigo Ink' name when listing the cross? Or would my cross need to be listed generically as "Phalaenopsis Pulcherrima chomporensis var coerulea x (whatever I cross it with)"?

    This is extremely confusing. I just want to make sure that when I do get some seedlings to bloom, that I'm listing and selling them properly and responsibly. I don't want to be including misleading clonal names in my crosses if they are not official.

    Thanks again, everybody! My brain kind of feels like it's going to explode at this point, but I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row before I plow ahead with crossing stuff.

    Oh, and if I cross two plants that are already hybrids, but as yet uncrossed, do I still get to register the grex name for the resulting plant? Like, if I crossed a Phal Princess Kaiulani with a Phal Lovely Marie, could I register the resulting cross as a new grex (assuming this cross hasn't been already registered)?

    I'm starting to think I should have studied botany instead of music in college... LOL I can't tell you how much I sincerely appreciate all your help!!

    Smiles, Jenn

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    Ooh, wait...there's something I'm still confused on. When I'm browsing around online, I often see plants on websites with cultivar names listed, but no award assigned. So, if the only way to make a cultivar/clonal name "stick" is to get it awarded, what are all these stores doing naming all of their plants? Is it just to make them sound more appealing to people? It seems like it would be misleading, since the cultivar name doesn't really "count."
    Well when you enter the commercial area things are a bit different. There are two scenarios possible, one that the plant was judged and awarded, but since the exhibitor does not pay the fee for registering the award, the award doesn't get registered. Imagine yourself exhibiting 200-500 orchids, (yes I have seen big nurseries exhibit these no. of plants at the WOC last year) then say 50 get awarded, then simply to register these awarded plants the nursery would have to spend to the tunes of 2500-3000 Euros, which is quite an amount, so they may choose to just register say 10 and leave the remaining 40 awards unclaimed. But they know that this clone is worth getting an award, so they name it and then mericlone it. Since usually they have websites they include the photos of this particular clone which though unregistered is quite appealing. Say they have two coerulea versions of Phal. violacea, one that is the standard coerulea and the other that is much more nicer, they have an option to name it coerulea 1 and coerulea 2, but instead they name it as Phal. violacea coerulea 'Blue dream' or something, since it is different from the normal coerulea I think it is valid to differentiate for the buyer what to buy, so in theory it is not misleading or wrong, just that it makes no difference if you use it for crossing. Say for eg. you decide to use the unregistered 'Blue Dream' for a cross with say Phal. cornu-cervi, Your cross should look like Pahl. violacea var. coerulea x Phal. cornu-cervi. And you can mention that the Blue dream clone from so and so nursery was used as the violacea parent, so the buyer can look up that phal. violacea and decide if he wants it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    I was just looking on a major orchid retailer's site, and they have "nicknamed" pretty much all of their plants...awarded or not. One example is listed as the following: Dtps. Tying Shin Fantastic World 'Star Wars.' Then, underneath it, it shows the actual cross as (Dtps. Chian Xen Pearl x Phal. Timothy Christopher). So in this case, the Fantastic World title would stick, because it's the grex name for the cross of the Chian Xen Pearl x Phal. Timothy Christopher, right? But the 'Star Wars' cultivar name means pretty much nothing, because there's no award for this plant, correct? So they're just sticking the 'Star Wars' name on the plant to make it sound neat so people will buy it?
    It means nothing from the context of naming consequential hybrids, It also means nothing if the flower is no different than the standard Tying Shin Fantastic World. But if it is exceptional or different in some way that could be appealing to someone a mention about it would not harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    I recently purchased a Phalaenopsis Pulcherrima Coerulea 'Indigo Bunting' HCC/AOS. In this case, I know that the 'Indigo Bunting' name is official, since it has the awards next to it, right? And I could therefore list it as a parent using the 'Indigo Bunting' HCC/AOS name on the label for the cross. But then I saw another blue variation on the Pulcherrima, which looked light it might be a more brilliant blue. I bought it on auction. The name listed was Doritis Pulcherrima var coerulea subvar chomporensis ('Indigo Ink' x self). Does the 'Indigo Ink' name here mean nothing because it has not been awarded? Is this just this particular grower's "pet name" for his plant, and thus not really usable on a label?
    As I mentioned earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    Hypothetically, if I were to use this plant for breeding, would I be able to use the 'Indigo Ink' name when listing the cross? Or would my cross need to be listed generically as "Phalaenopsis Pulcherrima chomporensis var coerulea x (whatever I cross it with)"?
    I think the previous explanation holds good also for this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    Oh, and if I cross two plants that are already hybrids, but as yet uncrossed, do I still get to register the grex name for the resulting plant? Like, if I crossed a Phal Princess Kaiulani with a Phal Lovely Marie, could I register the resulting cross as a new grex (assuming this cross hasn't been already registered)?
    Yes

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    The second scenario I would like to mention involves people like me, living in countries which do not have a functioning orchid society. So even if I bloom a new hybrid or a old hybrid or a species exceptionally well, I cannot take it to judging and get it awarded What do I do then. Also consider from where most of these orchid species are coming from. Many South American countries export exceptional clones of Cattleyas and Laelias which are very different from the tipo cultivars, they can only get awarded and named when they are brought to the US or to the EU or some other country which has a functioning orchid society and judging centre. So they name these particular different clones by some name which even though not awarded is used to differentiate the plant from a standard form, They then include a photo or description of this novel variety.

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