Hmmm, a question on Paph. sanderianum hybrids

So, I've been doing a comparitive study this afternoon and started wondering about something.

If a fair number of the OZ sanderianums, ie. 'deep pockets' and 'jacob's ladder", were in fact PEOY's, why are PEOY's with either of those parents x roth. 'Rex' FCC/AOS so pricey/sought after? This brings some questions to mind about whether that information about incorrectly labeled sanderianums is correct. Wouldn't the hybrids of those cultivars be much more PEOY like and have fewer characteristics of the two supposed parents? Like, wouldn't the petals of a PEOY crossed w/ a roth be a lot shorter than other PEOY hybrids that really have the sand. parent?

Does any of that make sense, the way I asked the question? Sorry.

Also, if this is such a known issue w/ the sand. parent, why would people still seek out these famous cultivars for their PEOY's? Hmmm, am I overthinking things again???

The long and short of it is that most of those OZ 'sanderianums' were phony. However, the PEOYs labeled as such have bloomed out true. Note that in almost all of the PEOY crosses, the roth is the pod parent. The corollary is that the pollen parent (sandy) is not given the stress of bearing the pod. It is the sandy sib cross that has turned out phony.

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Jason

Thanks for the explanation Jason, makes sense.

I don't know if this thread is still alive but if so...

Jason, what evidence do you have that most of the Orchid Zone sanderianums are not bonified? If this is true, which of his sanderianums are true sanderianums?

I have heard the story of the initial limited supply and distribution of collected sanderiamuns in the USA first hand from two well-known, established growers (old guys), one of which had the plants in his hand upon arrival into the US. The basic story has been repeated in the book Orchid Fever.

I have never heard of this forgery before and I have my doubts. Terry Root would be putting a lot on the line by doing such a thing.

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Garland
Midlothian, VA
"You know, the only people that are weirder than us are the dog show people...and we are not a distant second by any means." Joe Kunisch

Garland, it is no secret that the bulk of the OZ sanderianums are not sanderianum at all, but rather PEOY, and very rot-prone and pretty crappy PEOYs at that (if one can imagine crappy PEOYs). Have I purchased from Terry Root before? No, I have not. I was tempted to in the past but they had that 500 minimum order. But I have talked to numerous growers who got swindled, and I have no reason to doubt that this took place. These are good people who would not make this stuff up. In fact, you'll get all the more reason to believe it if you've ever called the OZ to get information on a cross and got the unhelpful cold shoulder. They used to put out some really great paphs, but it does not seem that they particularly value customer opinion. As far as I know, they did *not* refund anyone's money from that phony sandy cross. And, as you can imagine, that generated some real ill-will in the paph community. How much that has affected his sales I do not know. I hear rumors he's not doing that much paph breeding anymore, but maybe it was just out of petulance.

If you are affiliated with the OZ, I apologize for my tone but I just tell it like it is. And I'm pretty sure this is how it is, and it's a real travesty when a company has no respect for the consumer. It may have been an honest mistake, although it's hard to imagine how the mixup could have occurred since they presumably do their own flasking. But their handling of the situation shows no more class than the Taiwanese nursery or nurseries that have produced that recent wave of bogus sandy hybrids. It's real unfortunate, but as long as we have paphs in high demand, I'm afraid that these scams will continue to take place periodically. That's why it becomes so important with these plants to buy from sellers you know will stand by their plants...even if the original breeder does not.

The only legitimate OZ sandies were from their original and very limited sib cross. One could tell from the Z-numbers, but I do not have the information on which one is real and which are not. I do know that John @ Parkside Orchids has that information--he mentioned it to me once on which numbers to avoid, but I wasn't really in the OZ sandy market and didn't commit them to memory. I think that most scrupulous growers will know at this point which are real and which are false.

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Jason