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High Nitrogen fertilizer and systemic pesticides

This is a discussion on High Nitrogen fertilizer and systemic pesticides within the General Orchid Culture forums, part of the Orchid Culture category; I read recently that adding a high nitrogen fertilizer with a systemic pesticide may increase ...

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  1. #1
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    Default High Nitrogen fertilizer and systemic pesticides

    I read recently that adding a high nitrogen fertilizer with a systemic pesticide may increase the rate of uptake of the pesticide into the leaves of plants. I thought it was an interesting comment and wondered what others in the group thought of this?
    Don

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    Within a communal /mixed orchid collection an average ph can be settled on, but if specialist like phragmipedium the correct ph would be more an objective in terms of slightly acidic than alkaline. This would contribute to a better orchid care approach and or improved orchid cultivation.

    With this factor and many other requirements needed for healthy root system a high nitrogen feed would aid the plant but in terms of improving uptake i.e the phloem (what the plant uses as a means of transporting water/ nutrient up into a plant, i have not yet encounted anything research wise to corroborate it. Any chance of a link to this article? sounds interesting.

    The element of strong / good healthy plant, good growth with good care IMHO is purely the best one can do or help to achieve as the plant is in 'optimum health' inorder to carry out the science bit thats required in its genetics/ instinct.

    Foliar spraying/ feeding has also been strongly recommended as the plant uses its 'stomata' in leaf to also absorb. Possibly an evolutionary development and used as a back-up plan if natures forces disrupt its situ in habitat. The stomata will therefore aid in absorbtion of systemic.?

    So yes to high nitrogen feed being linked with pesticide increasing intake indirectly as a boost (due to plant in top health), but as for direct/ instant or immediate as a direct result of using the two as an equation thats a question and a half.

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    It was on the label instructions of a wetable powder 75% Imidocloprid.

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    I am not using foliar spraying because I am using it indoors plus the manufacturer recommended a drench for indoor use.

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    I certainly wouldnt disregard any advice etc that is offered, from any source and would never encourage anyone else to either, but aslong as the plant/ root culture within the pot is in generally good health then the requirements for successful absorbtion are present and in your favour completely, inorder to act and combat unwelcome visitors. Some systemics take longer than others to reach optimal function aswell as the longevity of the particular brand when in use. This is where the concept of applying 'high nitrogen feed' in the equation to speed and increase functionality becomes arguable as a plant like most living organisms take time to react to the favourable elements available or nutrients provided. Ofcourse the concept or possibility of a chemical reaction occuring to enhance/ trigger/ promote increased intake when mixing these is not impossible.

    Think i recall using chemical you stated to treat weevils, (adults and larvae) that destroy bulbs roots tubers. If roots/ root system are good, your good to go with the confidence that your actions will address situation youve encountered.

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    It depends on the source of nitrogen I would say. Nitrogen in the form of urea will have the above mentioned effect. Urea is directly absorbed across the cell membrane in plants and a weak urea solution will be able to transport other soluble substances with it. Urea has been used in this way to transport some chemicals into the plant phloem.

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    Amey , what do you say to the theory that fertilisers containing urea are useless to epiphytic orchids, because the urea has to be broken down before the plant can utilise it- normally done by soil bacteria which are not present in epiphytic composts ?
    I know two orchid fertiliser manufacturers who are of this belief, and consequently use nitrates in their mixes , shunning the much cheaper urea.
    It is a matter I could usefully take up with one of those firms - for whom I sometimes act as consultant but if I am challenging their experience and belief I need to be quite sure of my ground, preferably with some references ?

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    Geoff! is it possible that the bacteria required to brake down urea in the nitrogen cycle could exist within the epiphytic situ when moisture is present and time plus additional favourable factors such as added organic matter.? the new tropical fish aquarium hobbyist will immediately encounter the learning curve of the nitrogen cycle resulting in severe results such as fish death if not understood and adhered to, inaddition implementing measures/ due dilligence. Products a plenty saturate the market using primarily fear mongering to earn a few quid from the new inexperienced hobbyist panicking at dead angel fish floating at top because not enough plants allowing build up of excess nitrates/nitrites and filter sponges and gravel/ faeces substrate not yet matured sufficiently to maintain mini eco system.

    Surely this eco system exists everywhere in varying scales/sizes.?? While the fertilizers are restricted in variety, would a rotation of diff products help better. We alone will allow only selected amounts/ quantities nutrients to be absorbed while excess soluble amounts are wasted compared to our requirement.

    Fertilisers are a major underestimated problem, pain and nuisance. Had many cases of burns, disfigurement, deformities. Strongly contemplating abandoning fert products altogether and stick to just superthrive and seaweed extract.

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    I was repeating what I have been told ; not a thing I am normally happy to do, but I don't have the time, expertise, facilities etc to check everything I am told ! . And the two fertiliser manufacturers concerned very definitely know far more about this subject than I do.
    The whole subject of soil flora ( meaning everything that lives in it - tens of thousands of species of bacteria, microrrhiza , fungus, invertebrates etc) is a fascinating one ; the addition of organic matter to a compost - e.g. pine bark or peat or sphagnum, unless very thoroughly sterilised, will certainly introduce some bacteria , but maybe they are not the right ones.

    Of course your seaweed extract is a fertiliser too ! Until modern times, seaweed was probably the only fertiliser availabel to many of the Scottish island communities, and its something I like to switch to occasionally - very rich in trace elements I believe.

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    I recommend using urea at very low concentrations 50-100 ppm and only as foliar feed. Urea (NH2-CO-NH2) is converted by soil borne bacteria into Ammonia (NH3) which dissoves in water to give ammonium (NH4+), this can be taken in by roots. But at low concentrations urea is absorbed through special ion channels, with H+ ions along the whole leaf surface. Also at these concentrations there are enough bacteria in our orchid composts to tackle the urea that might flow in from the foliar application. Use of urea in completely inorganic media and in semi hydroponics at the roots will be detrimental. The reason is actually not because of the absence of bacteria. Actually these bacteria are omnipresent, the problem is that these bacteria convert all the urea into Ammonia which is highly alkaline and toxic at higher concentrations. In soil the excess ammonia can be buffered but not in our orchid composts which lack buffering components. The orchids roots die due to pH burn due to the excess ammonia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorsetman View Post
    Amey , what do you say to the theory that fertilisers containing urea are useless to epiphytic orchids, because the urea has to be broken down before the plant can utilise it- normally done by soil bacteria which are not present in epiphytic composts ?
    I know two orchid fertiliser manufacturers who are of this belief, and consequently use nitrates in their mixes , shunning the much cheaper urea.
    It is a matter I could usefully take up with one of those firms - for whom I sometimes act as consultant but if I am challenging their experience and belief I need to be quite sure of my ground, preferably with some references ?

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