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What should a orchid be named?

This is a discussion on What should a orchid be named? within the General Orchid Culture forums, part of the Orchid Culture category; Some are upset by the fact that the most resent biological research has show that ...

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  1. #1
    Magnus A's Avatar
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    Default What should a orchid be named?

    Some are upset by the fact that the most resent biological research has show that Neofinetia is not different enough from Vanda, and are moved back and the name from 1854 is retaken.

    But why are people upset?
    Before 1925, when Neofenetia falcata was separated from the Vanda by the then most advanced studies, there was no orchid named Neofinetia falcata!

    Some argue that it is the first person that describe a orchid that should name it but then we should call it "Orchis falcata" as Thunberg named it in the first description 1784.

    Science advances and this mean that plants are renamed as our knowledge of their heritage get bigger!

    For all of you that is upset by the move I would like to hear your motivation why this plant should be named just Neofenetia falcata!


    For you that are interesting you find all descriptions of Vanda falcata belowe.

    Accepted name:
    Vanda falcata (Thunb.) Beer, Prakt. Stud. Orchid.: 317 (1854).

    Synonymes:
    Orchis falcata Thunb. in J.A.Murray, Syst. Veg. ed. 14: 811 (1784).
    Limodorum falcatum (Thunb.) Thunb., Trans. Linn. Soc. London 2: 326 (1794).
    Angraecum falcatum (Thunb.) Lindl., Coll. Bot.: t. 15 (1821).
    Oeceoclades falcata (Thunb.) Lindl., Gen. Sp. Orchid. Pl.: 237 (1833).
    Aerides thunbergii Miq., Ann. Mus. Bot. Lugduno-Batavi 2: 205 (1866).
    Angorchis falcata (Thunb.) Kuntze, Revis. Gen. Pl. 2: 651 (1891).
    Angraecopsis falcata (Thunb.) Schltr., Orchideen: 601 (1914).
    Finetia falcata (Thunb.) Schltr., Beih. Bot. Centralbl. 36(2): 140 (1918).
    Neofinetia falcata (Thunb.) Hu, Rhodora 27: 107 (1925).
    Nipponorchis falcata (Thunb.) Masam., Mem. Fac. Sci. Taihoku Imp. Univ. 11(4): 592 (1934).
    Holcoglossum falcatum (Thunb.) Garay & H.R.Sweet, Bot. Mus. Leafl. 23: 182 (1972).

  2. #2
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    I would say that a big part of the issue -- for me at least -- Magnus, is Kew putting out a name change and then changing it yet again just a short time later. It calls into question their position as an "authority" as they obviously cannot make up their little minds. If the argument is: "these back and forth name changes is because there is so much DNA information still emerging" then the intelligent course of action would be to complete the analysis and THEN announce what changes will be made.

    Even more ludicrous is the blatant stupidity of some of the resulting name changes. Particularly amongst the hybrids, it is evident in the new name that some taxomonist is just trying to get their name on plant. If the plants making up an Iwanagara for instance get renamed, fine -- but that does not mean the name Iwanagara necessarily needs to be discarded (especially in favor of that of some self aggrandizing taxomonist).

    Also I do recall one of our members mentioning that a great deal of the current confusion is the result of internal politics.

    The result of all this grand idiocy is the ticking off of the general orchid public to the point that many have no interest in what these people have to say nor any intent on following the changes in practice.




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    Pavel, Kew just report on what the scientific peer-rewiew botanical litterature reports! With some delay, as they need to found the information. Some boards are obviously faster than other and in some case a little to fast...

    The stupidity in hybrid naming IS NOT due to the botanic taxonomists ! They do care shit about artificial hybrids. It is the horticultural sociaty, e.i. the hobby community that drive the hybride naming change NOT the botanical scientists!

    /M

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    And it is not only detailed DNA studies but more general proteomic and metabolic studies that make things hard...

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    I had an AOS judge give me an interesting thought on the matter just today:

    "One person doing a PhD dissertation makes one conclusion, and it changes. Along comes another PhD candidate, and it changes again..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus A View Post
    The stupidity in hybrid naming IS NOT due to the botanic taxonomists ! They do care shit about artificial hybrids. It is the horticultural sociaty, e.i. the hobby community that drive the hybride naming change NOT the botanical scientists!
    /M
    I know of no one in the "hobby community" who has any desire to institute hybrid name changes nor that would support anyone who would campaign for such. As such I am skeptical as to the accuracy of that statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus A View Post
    And it is not only detailed DNA studies but more general proteomic and metabolic studies that make things hard...
    The again, any "official" name changes should not be made until all the studies have been finished.

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    For a beginner not in the loop name changes create a problem. I remember Laelia purpurata being high on my wish list...I passed up half a dozen varieties at NBS for five dollars each because they were labeled as Cattleya.Posted via Mobile Device

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    [QUOTE=pavel;333563]I know of no one in the "hobby community" who has any desire to institute hybrid name changes nor that would support anyone who would campaign for such. As such I am skeptical as to the accuracy of that statement.

    Please, do not lift out parts of statements and twist it out of context!
    I wrote "It is the horticultural sociaty,......."

    Botanist does not have an urge to compete for fame with hybrids and it is this buisness that drive the eagerness to change name of hybrids to give it a smell of science.

    The only reson for the RHS (horticulture society/ "hobby growers") to change name is their anal wish to be scientific and be associate with the big botanists of the history. They could take the stand that a hybrid should keap it´s first registered name independent of name change of their parents. BUT THEY DO NOT! This is not the botanists fault, they only push knowledge forward!

    There is a clear difference between Botany and Hortuculture... and most of us is doing horticulture!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavel View Post
    ... Even more ludicrous is the blatant stupidity of some of the resulting name changes. Particularly amongst the hybrids, it is evident in the new name that some taxomonist is just trying to get their name on plant. If the plants making up an Iwanagara for instance get renamed, fine -- but that does not mean the name Iwanagara necessarily needs to be discarded (especially in favor of that of some self aggrandizing taxomonist). ...
    Taxonomists have no part in naming of hybrids, unless a naturally occuring hybrid is involved. Taxonomy is science. Artifical hybrid names are determined solely by the International Orchid Register, run the the Royal HORTICULTURAL Society. Horticulture, not science. The Orchid Register could choose to ignore rapidly changing taxonomy, or even ignore taxonomy completely. They could choose the name of a taxonomist is they want to, but normally it is someone involved in orchid horticulture, and of course this is political, or they could choose the name of the guy who scrubs the RHS toilets. The originator of a new intergeneric cross (a horticulturist, not a scientist) might have some influence on this horticultural decision, but the Register decides.

    The taxonomists don't give a flying #@(% about what any artifical hybrid is called. Taxonomists do give new species or genus names, but they rarely name them after themselves even then. They would much rather have their work accepted on its merits by others than have it rejected just because of their own ego.

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    Magnus, I did not lift it out of context. You equated the horticultural societies with being the same thing as the hobby community. And I know of no one in said community (nor amongst any vendors I have spoken to) who favors said changes. As such I find it difficult to believe that hobbyists are the driving force behind such change.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaphMadMan View Post
    The Orchid Register could choose to ignore rapidly changing taxonomy, or even ignore taxonomy completely. They could choose the name of a taxonomist is they want to, but normally it is someone involved in orchid horticulture, and of course this is political, or they could choose the name of the guy who scrubs the RHS toilets.
    Now THAT was funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaphMadMan View Post
    The taxonomists don't give a flying #@(% about what any artifical hybrid is called. Taxonomists do give new species or genus names, but they rarely name them after themselves even then. They would much rather have their work accepted on its merits by others than have it rejected just because of their own ego.
    The first part (about hybrids) I will give you, but not wholly the second (about species). Politics is fully alive in scientific fields and there are a number of species for which a species has been named after individuals instead of in any meaningful way.

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