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Vandaenopsis culture?

This is a discussion on Vandaenopsis culture? within the Genus Specific forums, part of the Orchid Culture category; Originally Posted by catttan My point is, a true Vandaenopsis would be a very rare ...

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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by catttan View Post
    My point is, a true Vandaenopsis would be a very rare find indeed and I exclude all those that are crossed with Paraphalaenopsis or Doritis (now also classified as Phal by some taxonomist).
    Wow...all this breeding history is quite fascinating!

    According to the website, this plant's parents are Vanda Cristata and Phalaenopsis Philippinense. These are both species plants, right? So this would be a primary cross and therefore a bona fide Vandaenopsis, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by orchidsal View Post
    And here I thought all free flowering orchids were nymphomaniac's.............................. AL
    From what I understand, flowering plants in general are all about sex! LOL A couple of days ago I cross-pollinated a couple of my exceptionally nice NOID phals, just to see if it would take. I have to admit I felt a bit like an interloper...but then I suppose a "threesome" is required for any successful pollination! Anyone got a cigarette?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloamey View Post
    It is a quite recent hybrid, registered only in 2011, so no information exists about its offspring. But my educated guess would be that is fertile. Fertility or sterility are not the functions of how far the genera are in the artificial human classification, but more of genetics and genomics. Usually plants with same no. of chromosomes will produce fertile offspring. It has got to do with the equal distribution of chromosomes during gamete formation. Vandas and Phals. both are naturally diploid and have 38 chromosomes (n=19). So the resulting offspring also has 38 chromosomes 19 from each parent. Whe this plant wants to form its haploid gametes it can form 2 equal gametes. Now consider a hybrid of a Phalaenopsis and Angraecum. Angraecum sesquipedale has a diploid no. of 42 chromosomes, so its gametes will have 21 chromosomes. The resulting hybrid will have 21+19 = 40 chromosomes. Now when it will form its own gametes it will have to divide its 40 chromosomes equally among the two gametes. Mathematically it is simple 20 chromosomes each, but biologically it is not the same. All the genetic information from the Angraecum parent is distributed on 21 chromosomes whereas genetic information the from the Phalaenopsis parent is distributed on 19 chromosomes. So a gamete that has 20 chromosomes has either more genetic information than necessary (19+1) or less than necessary (21-1) in either case the gamete is non functional. I will write more about this with diagrams and make an article about it over the weekend.
    Amey, you are an absolute WEALTH of information. My head was spinning just reading your post. You bet I'm tuning in to see the diagrams and article! I'm just learning about breeding, and I hope to start making my own crosses soon (of course, I still have the "flasking" hurdle to overcome...I'll head over to the breeding area of the forum for that...hehe.."breeding area" just sounds really bad and conjures up a very vivid mental image...)

    Anyway, thank you for explaining the science behind this in such detail! I'm definitely going to file away the stuff you share so I can refer to it later when I'm confused about a breeding issue! You are awesome!

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    i've been looking at these myself. that bright red cristata lip is wonderful. there is a lot of bad press about vanda/phal hybrids out there, some nice pale orange ones that are impossible to grow correctly... i've seen people grow them like phals with no luck and people who outright kill them when grown like vandas. there is no info on this one cross though. and most online pictures do not do the plant justice, you can see the flower but little else, it seems to look more like a phal maybe. v cristata is a himalayan species, and should impart some cool tolerance to the hybrid. i got my vanda paki to flower, so i got to choose a new orchid and went with a renantanda with cristata in it instead of this... but i do owe myself a new phal too... hmmm? this might be next on the list.

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    Jenn; I understand what your saying and it's true, but keep in mind that some of these flowering plants only experience sex once a year if that often and blooming plants never smoke in 'bed'. Lastly by doing the cross pollination that really makes you "the matchmaker" and later maybe the 'midwife'. Two very honorable and responsible psitions......................AL

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    Amey I agree with Jenn that you are a great store of knownledge that in many instances would be difficult to find elsewhere. AL

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    Quote Originally Posted by orchidsal View Post
    Jenn; I understand what your saying and it's true, but keep in mind that some of these flowering plants only experience sex once a year if that often and blooming plants never smoke in 'bed'.
    Sex only once a year? I feel a bit sorry for my plants now...those must be some damn frustrated orchids!

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    Default ménage à trois

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    Sex only once a year? I feel a bit sorry for my plants now...those must be some damn frustrated orchids!
    Hi Jenn,
    I have a Vandaenopsis story and questions...

    Similar to another post here, one evening I had a couple beers and sat down with my three bloomin Phalaenopsis and by morning all three were pregnant...with both of the other two participants in this ménage à trois!

    Then I saw my one poor Vanda Thai Spot sitting there looking on. I felt her asking to be included. Why not? Intragenics are more accepted now than ever! None of her (his!?) pollen "took" in the Phalaenopsis mothers, but one of the three Phals became the proud father of a fat growing seed pod on Thai (I'm not sure which one is the father - I don't know the species or hybrid names of any of my Phals). I wanted to upload photos but don't have time now to reformat them to be under 700x700...later.

    I have tissue culture experience and own an independent testing lab and we have a sterile hood/workstation, so I hope to germinate these little ones and flask them.

    I have a few questions:
    1) how long should it take for Phalaenopsis seed pods to mature?
    2) how long for this Vandaenopsis seed pod to mature?
    3) Are there any special techniques to give these babies a strong start in the flasking phase of their life?

    Thanks OrchidTalk Forum for being here for us!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrchidAddict View Post
    I've heard that combining two far-reaching genres can often result in sterile offspring.
    I have felt like Vanda and Phalaenopsis must be very close cousins. They are both monopodial (alternating leaves out of the same central stalk) and the roots look and act very similar. While in captivity, we hang Vanda in plastic baskets and put Phalaenopsis in bark filled pots, in nature they both are fully epiphytic, growing on trees or whatever they can grab ahold of. To me the blooms look similar, especially the column which is where the sexyness happens!

    Then last week I saw the highly detailed classification scheme in The Orchids: Natural History and Classification by R. L. Dressler (1981) which shows Vanda and Phalaenopsis comprise the SARCANTHINAE Subtribe which is in the VANDEAE Tribe. The classification has changed since then, but probably they are still considered to be close cousins. The genetic analysis Halloamey gives us below confirms they are not radically different genetically.

    As for how to raise them, I expect them to be individuals, some more like their mother, some more like their father and all of them just trying to find their place under the sun.
    Jon

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