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A Substitute Maybe?: Wilsonara Pacific Perspective 'Pacific Heat'...?

This is a discussion on A Substitute Maybe?: Wilsonara Pacific Perspective 'Pacific Heat'...? within the Oncidium/ Intergeneric Information forums, part of the Frequently Asked Questions category; More on Oncidioda Charlesworthii 'Mishima' . . . . ( OK, I am obsessed.... ) ...

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  1. #1
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    Default A Substitute Maybe?: Wilsonara Pacific Perspective 'Pacific Heat'...?

    More on Oncidioda Charlesworthii 'Mishima' . . . . (OK, I am obsessed....)

    Recently--(who am I kidding?)--nay! All the time I am looking at orchid greenhouses, having just purchased seventeen new plants to my delight. I came across an Oncidinae type orchid that in picture at least seemed close to Oncidioda Charlesworthii 'Mishima'. Perhaps, just maybe, for warmer-tolerate growing conditions, this orchid will be a good substitute for one's collection for the fickle Oncidioda Charlesworthii 'Mishima'. (Yes! I said that . . . .)

    Having the feel of the later, the possible substitute Oncidinae orchid is Wilsonara Pacific Perspective 'Pacific Heat' .

    I understand that some Wilsonara are cool growing while others are tolerate of warm temperatures. Is anyone familiar with Wilsonara and maybe this particular cultivar?

    Check out the images included as a comparison at the bottom of this post! What do you think?

    ----

    My references tell me that some Wilsonara are, indeed, warm-tolerate. Yet, it is a complex inter-genetic cross: where Wilsonara is three genera combined: Cochlioda x Odontoglossum X Oncidium. I believe (1)Cochlioda and (2) Odontoglossum take temperatures that cool to intermediate, making them plants that a warm growing orchid enthusiast, like myself, might have trouble with environmentally and culturally. Yet the Manual of Orchids "x Wilsonara" (Series Editor: Mark Griffiths; 1995) suggests that some are tolerate of warm temperatures.

    Does anyone have any information that might shed light on Wilsonara as a substitute for Cochlioda? Specifically any guess as to the particular cultivars compared as a possibility for a substitute?

    Again check out the images below:

    (1)
    Wilsonara Pacific Perspective 'Pacific Heat' (**vendor removed**):


    Again, many thanks for reading!
    Tim
    Last edited by Brutal_Dreamer; October 11th, 2009 at 10:13 AM. Reason: please see the FAQs on posting

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    Okay Tim---

    Although not the most experienced grower, I grow mostly Oncidiinea: Brassia and lots of different Oncidium hybrids. I have two Wilsonara and they are the most finicky of all of them. I say that as they seem to burn easily and need to be watered more than other hybrids, and the two I own have been very slow growers and sturggled over the past year or more. I think this is the case as I have a relatively hot growing environment over the spring and summer.

    Even for their relatively small size in comparison to the others Oncids they seem like they can survive the temp, they just don't like it. In my growing conditions they don't seem as vigorous as the Oncidiums, Mitassias and Odontobrassias. I'd have more than the two I do have if they responded better in my care. Hope this helps in some way.

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    Hey Derek,
    Many thanks for your reply to my post concerning Wilsonara. Your experience is indeed valuable to me; in that, whereas the Oncidiinae have become my favorite group of orchids in recent years, though it is hard to have anyone favorite group accordingly; I am still just learning about this subtribe loosely centered around the Oncidium.

    So shared knowledge is gained insight!

    Both Oncidioda and Wilsonara have my attention now, as is apparent by the recent posts on Oncidioda Charlesworthii 'Mishima'.

    I have never grown Wilsonara . . . so I have to plead ignorance here on just what it takes to make them thrive. I do know that I have struggled with Oncidioda Charlesworthii 'Mishima', having been seduced by its beauty several times and subsequently lost good money every time. Though I am working on presently on bucking this trend with some help!

    When I came across the picture of Wilsonara Pacific Perspective 'Pacific Heat' that I posted, I was struck by a couple things: (1) the flowers were close in appearance to the Oncidioda I speak of presently; AND (2) the name of the plant--namely being 'Pacific heat'--I thought might offer a clue as to it being a warm-tolerate grower. (The name could also have something to do with the color of the flower too! Who knows really? Purely a subjective intuition on my part.) The reference Manual of Orchids "x Wilsonara" (Series Editor: Mark Griffiths; 1995) states that there are some Wilsonara that are in fact warm-tolerate growers. Thus I created hope!

    I guess, I can say that in looking at the plants offered in the Oncidiinae I thought it possible that the nature of these inter-genetic wonders could indeed produce a similar flower on an entirely different plant. Such is the hope at least. But with (1) parentage coming from Cochlioda and Odontoglossum and (2) your shared experience on Wilsonara; I am thinking that the chances of it being anything but "finicky" are looking slim.

    Nevertheless, still, if anyone else has some experience and knowledge of Wilsonara growing in a warm environment, please be so kind as to share!

    Like you Derek, I have had a lot more success with Oncidium, Miltassia and Odontobrassia--as well as Brassia. Have you seen Odontobrassia Mem. Nikoline Lorenzen 'Martz Stars' . . . ? I just got this orchid Thursday with two spikes on it, one already blooming. I fell in love with it as soon as I saw it. Maybe it is more likely a realistic "replacement" to satisfy the soul, with its own reds and oranges, than the different looking yet Oncidioda Charlesworthii 'Mishima' and Wilsonara Pacific Perspective 'Pacific Heat' . . . ? Do you know this Odontobrassia? I have attached an image of it for you to look at.

    Again thank you for your reply,
    Tim
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    hi, i have a wilsonara kolibri, and my conditions here are warm to hot, but since they thrive in other parts of the philippines, i gave it a try!
    i havent seen too many oncidium crosses with cooler growing conditions around here, so i would say this "kolibri" would go as "warmer" one.

    im also interested in more crosses in this genera which can take on the heat.

    cheers,

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    @Tim--No, I don't have that Odontobrassia; however, it is very nice looking. I enjoy the upswept nature of the blooms.

    For that deep coloring in a plant with a small bloom that I know to be more forgiving, you could look up Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat'.

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    Like this post. I also am very interested in Oncidium types that are warm tolerant. The oncidiums and brassias do fine here. Vuystekeara-combo of cochlioda,miltonia and odontoglossum dont do well (ie...they melt and die ,no matter how much I pamper them to keep them cool in the summer.) I have had good luck with Wilsonara Tigersette"Wild Court'.I have a Dgmra Winter Wonderland"White Fairy' that is surviving,but is not really robust. Such a beautiful flower and sweetly fragrant. Miltassias also do well here.

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    The Degarmoara hybrids are amazing in my experience, don't mind temp swings or weather and light changes! They seem fast growing, easy to bloom and very hardy. Any of the Dgmra Flying High, 'Stars and Bars' and 'Yellow Star' seem to be incredibly vigorous. I didn't run the AC at all this summer and temps were 75-95 in the window and my Stars and Bars blew up.

    I have the Wilsonara Tigersette, and it is just generally unhappy with my conditions. Maybe it's not the temp....it could be that I haven't keep it moist enough.

    Vuystekeara are 2/3 cool/cold, diffused light parentage from Cochlodia and Odontoglossum, although the Miltonias are supposedly better able to handle temp variations, but its no wonder they melt down there in Texas!

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    Default Tolerance is a good thing! Wilsonara Kolibri

    Quote Originally Posted by walingwaling View Post
    hi, i have a wilsonara kolibri, and my conditions here are warm to hot, but since they thrive in other parts of the philippines, i gave it a try!
    i havent seen too many oncidium crosses with cooler growing conditions around here, so i would say this "kolibri" would go as "warmer" one.

    im also interested in more crosses in this genera which can take on the heat.

    cheers,
    (Hey! Many thanks for the reply! Sorry for not responding sooner, as I have had "non-orchids" things to entertain. To think they actually exist! Something "other" than orchids.... Yikes!)

    Upon initially reading the post, I did not know Wilsonara Kolibri. Now! What can be said except that I am totally taken, captivated, and ergo! seduced by this orchid, which especially heralds warm-temperature tolerance for a Wilsonara! I am really excited by this Oncidiinae orchid. As with us all here in general, only money, space, and time are needed!

    I just ran a google search on the orchid, cross-referenced some background information in books, and discovered a myriad images and links to it:

    (1) I understand it to be an established orchid that is clearly available for purchase online;

    (2) Its parentage seems important to share, because this post is discussing among a number of subjects, prospects on warm-tolerant Wilsonara. Thus its parentage becomes important. Wilsonara Kolibri appears to be a cross of Wilsonara Intermezzo x Odontoglossum pescatorei (syn. Odm. nobile, as stated in The Manual of Orchids "Odontoglossum" (Series Editor. Mark Griffiths, 1995.). That would seem like another "jumping place" for further discussion, if anyone has experience and knows these two other plants. . . ?

    (3) In examining the search, I came across a couple other forms. Notably a Wilsonara Kolibri 'Red' shows up as well as Wilsonara Kolibri 'Woodland's Marvel' HCC/AOS. The HCC/AOS significance obviously carries some weight of importance to anyone in cultivating this plant.

    (4) Also I have attached a couple images found online, though there are many to view, that seem to represent the flower. Pictures always vary, however! Nevertheless, I thought that representing the image of the flower might increases the richness of the thread and general discussion. See images below:

    At any rate, hoping that the above makes sense, I certainly do understand why you tried this Wilsonara. It looks like I am going to have to start compiling a written wish-list of orchids! (Shouldn't I already have done so?) What better test of warm (to hot) growing temperatures for a Wilsonara than what I understand of the overall growing conditions of the Philippines to be. Surely this guy will take to Virginia Beach, VA, USA.... Likewise--obviously--I share in your interest in more Wilsonara that "can take on the heat." Nicely put . . . .

    Thanks for reading and sharing,
    Tim
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    hi tim,
    im sorry to get you addicted to the "kolibri", lol.
    thanks for all the input on this one, as far as i understand, the odontoglossum parentage likes it cooler and moist, i just dont know how many genes it carries....
    well, as for now, we should have the cooler months coming with lots of rain, thats the time my plant should take advantage, see how nice i am? hehe

    and i will see how it does in the hotter months, hopefully it gets adjusted...
    as for the climate here, its similiar to your southern parts like florida or cal, but if anyone can grow this "kolibri" in texas, i mean outside in shades, than i should be certainly able to do as well.

    cheers,

  10. #10
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    Post Another saturated beauty! Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by navyderek View Post
    @Tim--No, I don't have that Odontobrassia; however, it is very nice looking. I enjoy the upswept nature of the blooms.

    For that deep coloring in a plant with a small bloom that I know to be more forgiving, you could look up Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat'.
    Above . . . .

    Odontobrassia Mem. Nikoline Lorenzen 'Martz Stars': Yes! the upswept nature of the flower, especially in combination with others along the stem, greatly appeals to me as well. The overall effect is quiet stunning in picture as well as in person. When I purchased it, not more than a few weeks ago, I was greatly taken by this unusual nature of this flower as well as the deep saturated orange to rust-color of this Odontobrassia. In listing it, I thought it might appeal to you and the larger forum here. I thought it pretty unique in character.

    Moreover . . . .

    Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS is another beauty, another member of the Oncidium Alliance, appealing to my preexisting aesthetic sensibilities for highly saturated Oncidiinae, especially those rich involving vibrant yellows, oranges and reds. The numerous orchid discussed in this thread has had a decided effect on me. Yet, it seems, too, that whenever a member here in this forum suggests a seemingly new warm tolerate Oncidiinae I am quite taken with the orchid. That is the great aspect to a community of enthusiasts like here in this very enjoyable forum.

    Like yesterday's reflection on Wilsonara Kolibri, with the time I have had available today, I have spent the day pondering this deeply beautiful Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS. Today's study and mediation began like yesterday on a primarily search online and references some stand-by references.

    Let's see what I discover today:

    (1) Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS is a highly regarded orchid, as the Award of Merit by the American Orchid Society suggests. Although this following comment involves a slight of hand with regard to synonymy, I read at least once that Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS is the highest rated orchid of the Colmanara cited with the Award of Merit! Besides its innate beauty, that makes this orchid obviously highly collectable for reasons of being assured a plant of exception quality. But, please read carefully what I wrote about this high-ranking orchid, because this regard is limited to Colmanara, not all Oncidium. I will raise a question of taxonomy below regarding the result's of my research using commonly both Oncidium, Colmanara, and Odontocidium as the genus name for this Wildcat 'Bobcat'. Until then I will continue to use Oncidium.

    (2) It appears that the parentage of this cross is Odontonia Rustic Bridge x Odontocidium Crowborough. Though for many I might be going back to Orchid Basics 101 too much, I thought it nevertheless worthwhile taxonomically to simply define the two parent genera comprising the complex inter-genetic Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS: (i) Odontonia is Miltonia x Odontoglossum AND (ii) Odontocidium is Odontoglossum x Oncidium. That makes Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS a combination of Miltonia x (2x) Odontoglossum x Oncidium. Hold on to this thought as I take care of two other matters!

    (3) Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS appears widely available online for purchase.

    (4) Again, as I did yesterday for Wilsonara Kolibri, I have included a picture at the bottom of this discussion so that Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS is represented in flower for those like myself who were not aware of its striking visually beauty for a note-worthy and well-known member of the Oncidium Alliance, or Oncidiinae.

    (5) Let's return to synonymy, as I am unsure why there in common usage three genera for one plant of exception merit. Anyone who can clarify this point is most welcome to respond. Three genus names are commonly employed in reference to Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS: (i) Oncidium, (ii) Colmanara, AND (iii) Odontocidium. Above (2), we also noted the parentage of this cross, as involving Miltonia x Odontoglossum x Oncidium. The question stands as to which one is the correct taxonomical signifier for this plant.

    I don't pretend to know the answer. The "publication" of genus and species names that fundamentally make up a complex cross as well as the "registry" of hybrids are governed by rules that are beyond my scope. I would contend that form a p r a x i s alone, perhaps, Colmanara is the better name.

    Why?

    Oncidium already is a naturally occurring genus. To assign an complex inter-genetic, non-natural occurring plant to Oncidium seems misleading, suggesting as if it were not an engineered orchid.

    Colmanara, on the other hand, carries these complexities well. But, so would Odontocidium. Which one is the better of the two? According to The Manual of Orchids, "Odontocidium" (Series Editor. Mark Griffiths, 1995), the genus Odontocidium designates a cross of just two genera. Namely, Odontoglossum x Oncidium. But we have already established that our Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS is the combination of three genera: Miltonia x Odontoglossum x Oncidium. The genus name Colmanara, which interestedly enough is not listed in The Manual of Orchids, is clearly defined by the three above genera elsewhere. From a practical and, hopefully, logical point of view, our Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS cannot be an Odontocidium because Odontocidium is made up of Odontoglossum X Oncidium only. Miltonia is not included, in other words, within the scope of Odontocidium.

    Our Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS has as one parent as Odontonia Rustic Bridge, meaning that Odontonia is involved obviously in its genetic make-up. Again Odontonia is the cross Miltonia x Odontoglossum, making Miltonia an inherent contributor to our Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS. The other genetic contributors are known to be Odontoglossum and Oncidium. Three genera! in other words. Colmanara, as I understand, account for such a complex cross with linage of Odontonia (Miltonia x Odontoglossum) Rustic Bridge x Odontocidium (Odontoglossum x Oncidium) Crowborough.

    Or, in other words, I would there conclude that practically and logically Colmanara is the best genus name for our now reified Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS, because of the inclusion of all three genera with its definition. (Above noted.) And, again, because the complex inter-genetic, non-naturally occurring breeding of the crosses for our Oncidium Wildcat "Bobcat' AM/AOS, Colmanara seems better suited to handle the scope of such an engineered orchid.

    I will close on the qualification that again the rules that govern taxonomy are beyond my scope. Perhaps, what I would prefer to call Colmanara Wildcat 'Bob' AM/AOS is not the genus that this orchid was registered under? Also, just maybe, the Award of Merit by the American Orchid Society was given to a so named Oncidium Wildcat 'Bobcat'? And of course there other other assumptions I am making that I cannot yet know.

    Any thoughts?

    I trust that this rather technical prose I have composed on this wonderful and remarkable orchid is accurately expressed, because it would be very easy to get tripped up here. In any case, I hope foremost that I have expressed (i) my thought's today on the taxonomy of--dare I write it it!--Colmanara Wildcat 'Bobcat' AM/AOS AND my appreciation for the recommendation of this orchid within this post, whatever we decide to call it!

    Thank you for reading. Again I hope it is clearly articulated. Please forgive any over-sites and mental lapses!
    Tim
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