Shop Orchid Care OrchidTalk Orchid Forum Weather Station Links Nursery

Welcome to OrchidTalk Orchid Forums


The Friendliest Orchid Community on the Internet!


  •  » Learn to Repot your Orchids
  •  » Learn Orchid Care Tips and Secrets
  •  » Find the perfect Orchid for your Growing Environment
  •  » Chat with Orchid Growing Professionals

OrchidTalk - "Bringing People Together to Grow Orchids Better!"


Let us help you grow your Orchids better; Join our community today.


YES! I want to register an account for free right now!


Register or Login now to remove this advertisement.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Bifoliate cattleyas - some of the second leaves are limp.

This is a discussion on Bifoliate cattleyas - some of the second leaves are limp. within the Orchid Ailments / The Compost Pile forums, part of the Orchid Culture category; Hello Everyone, Lately I have been noticing something peculiar on a couple of my bifoliate ...

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    wetfeet101b's Avatar
    wetfeet101b is offline It's not dead! It's just permanently dormant.
    Real Name
    John
    My Grow Area
    Greenhouse
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleya, Cymbidium
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Riverside, CA
    Posts
    1,332
    Member's Country Flag

    Default Bifoliate cattleyas - some of the second leaves are limp.

    Hello Everyone,

    Lately I have been noticing something peculiar on a couple of my bifoliate cattleyas.
    The pseudobulb appears healthy and plump, and the first leaf is strong and sturdy.
    However, with some pseudobulbs, the second leaf is very soft right at the crown. The rest of the second leaf is fine, but the small section where it joins with the crown is limp and causes the leaf to droop down due to gravity.
    The result is that I have to support the leaf or it ends up hindering the flower sheath.

    I have checked for any signs of rot, but any discoloration I find at the crown seems more likely due to the leaf getting bruised as it bends at such an acute degree. So the brown spots are actually a result of the leaf bending down, and not the cause.

    Also, this softness at the junction is not permanent. It only seems to last for a few days and the leaf eventually hardens at the junction.
    However if not caught and addressed, the leaf hardens in an awkward position that is detrimental to the flower sheath.

    I am not sure if this is due to a nutrient deficiency - would it not affect all second leaves if it was a cultural or nutrient problem?

    I had some of these leaves in the past and I just left them alone and did not support them upright. The result is that the soft joint at the crown eventually hardened and the leaf appeared twisted. Needles to say, this twisted leaf when it hardened, blocked the flower sheath and resulted in dead flower buds.

    One other thing I think is noteworthy: with these two bifoliate cattleyas, I have noticed that a random number of pseudobulbs only produced one leaf, and the rest produced two leaves.
    Of the psuedobulbs with two leaves, about 1/3rd has the problem with the limp second leaf.

    Could it be just a genetic issue where the plant somehow just has a "half-baked" second leaf and therefore the second leaf will always be this weak?
    Perhaps those pseudobulbs with just one leaf were really bifoliate but the genetic defect caused it to abort the second leaf at the meristem level?

    This is one of the bifoliate cattleyas (the ubiquitous C. Hawaiian Wedding Song 'Virgin' ) showing a combination of one-leaf and two-leaf growths.
    Notice that one of the second leaves near the top-center of the plant is supported by a twist tie, or else it droops down and gets disfigured.
    BTW, this picture is a cute comparison of "standard" versus "mini" catts. Notice the mini catt in S/H to the left. The flower sheath of the standard dwarfs the entire mini plant


    Below is a picture of what I consider to be a strong second leaf.
    A different plant, but the same C. Hawaiian Wedding Song 'Virgin' clone.


    And this picture shows two other plants exhibiting the soft junction of the second leaf.
    I have circled the problem areas.
    The one on the foreground is only showing a minor softness problem. But the unnatural drooping is noticable.
    But notice the Lc. Puppy Love 'True Beauty' in the back. The second leaf has drooped all the way down, seemingly ready to fall off.


    All these cattleyas get between 3500-5000fc throughout the day and are all in baskets that dry out in about 2 days.
    I water heavily twice a week, and then the misters run every 30 minutes for 2 minutes from 10:00AM to 4:00PM for cooling and humidity.
    Humidity is around 50% during the day.

    What do you guys think?
    Possible suspects:
    1. Genetic
    2. Disease (fungal or bacterial)
    3. Insufficient light: 3500-5000fc already
    4. Too much nitrogen: I use a 30-10-10 formula during the growing season. Perhaps I should switch to a lower nitrogen ratio like 20-10-10 or 20-20-20.
    5. Too much humidity: 50%
    6. Too much water
    7. Specific nutrient deficiency: with my current fertilizer brew, it is unlikely that I would be missing anything so crucial to the plant.
    8. Orchid deities messing with me.

  2. #2
    cindiras's Avatar
    cindiras is offline Senior Member
    Real Name
    Cindi
    My Grow Area
    Under Lights
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Catts
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    1,766
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    I vote for number 8. Sorry! I haven't been playing with catts long enough to be able to give a solution to this problem. I would resort to skewers and twist ties.

  3. #3
    wetfeet101b's Avatar
    wetfeet101b is offline It's not dead! It's just permanently dormant.
    Real Name
    John
    My Grow Area
    Greenhouse
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleya, Cymbidium
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Riverside, CA
    Posts
    1,332
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cindiras View Post
    I vote for number 8. Sorry! I haven't been playing with catts long enough to be able to give a solution to this problem. I would resort to skewers and twist ties.
    Thanks. That is what I have been doing. As I find these leaves with problems I support them with twist ties.
    But as the plants get bigger and my collection grows, there becomes a greater chance that I would miss some pseudobulbs that are out of view.

  4. #4
    Brutal_Dreamer's Avatar
    Brutal_Dreamer is offline Dreaming with my eyes open...
    Real Name
    Bruce Brown
    My Grow Area
    Greenhouse
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleyas & Slippers
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    34,003
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    John, the first thing I thought was a nutrient problem, but after reading your entire post, I am not sure. I know you are growing your cattleyas very differently from the way we grow ours.

    We give our cattleyas between 2500 - 3300 foot candles of light. (we use 70% shade over the standard cattleyas)

    For the past year or so we have been using MSU for RO water. We DO NOT use RO water, we water with regular tap water as our water quality here at the base of the Ozarks Mountains in Arkansas is excellent. We just got the MSU for RO water because we liked the mix better for our cattleyas. It is 13 - 3 - 15 and has 8 calcium and 2 magnesium added into the mix.

    Humidity levels in the GH house are around 50 -55%. We do not use a misting system. We cool the GH with a Kool-Cell water cooling system

    We water twice a week, once into the pot with the hose and once with the sprayer nozzle that gets the leaves wet all over and has enough pressure to knock-off any pests that the water spray hits directly.

    We feed twice a month (once every two weeks) - at least we try. The fertilizer is so expensive sometimes we skip a feeding and only do it once a month. But I recommend doing it as often as weekly as long as you do it weakly.

    As far as the orchid deities go, we play music from a radio (usually 80's pop music - ((yes, I know it gives away my age!)) and leave the fans running 24/7 on high. The cattleyas are just under the fan level and often bob or move from the air movement. (They appear to dance or sway )

    We get some twisted leaves, but usually only due to crowding or growing against the wall of the GH.

    I would adjust your fertilizer as a first step. It could be due to your orchid's leaves growing really fast with a nutrient deficiency at some level. Hope this helps.

    Cheers,
    BD

  5. #5
    cindiras's Avatar
    cindiras is offline Senior Member
    Real Name
    Cindi
    My Grow Area
    Under Lights
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Catts
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    1,766
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    Bruce, I wonder if the movement of the leaves from air floe helps thier strength? i can remember reading about a bio-dome expirement where trees grown without air movement had very weak trunks. Seems the swaying motion of trees growing in a breeze promotes a stronger cellular structure. Could that be what is happening here?

  6. #6
    Brutal_Dreamer's Avatar
    Brutal_Dreamer is offline Dreaming with my eyes open...
    Real Name
    Bruce Brown
    My Grow Area
    Greenhouse
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleyas & Slippers
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    34,003
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cindiras View Post
    Bruce, I wonder if the movement of the leaves from air floe helps thier strength? i can remember reading about a bio-dome expirement where trees grown without air movement had very weak trunks. Seems the swaying motion of trees growing in a breeze promotes a stronger cellular structure. Could that be what is happening here?
    Possibly. Did not think of that. Though only the cattleyas directly under the fans actually move. More than 75% of them just hang there.

    Cheers,
    BD

  7. #7
    Cjcorner's Avatar
    Cjcorner is offline Senior Member
    Real Name
    Connie
    My Grow Area
    Porch/Patio.
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Mini Vanda, Schombs &Encyclia.
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    West of Tampa, FL
    Posts
    9,139
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    They are like mine, I have a couple that do that as well. I have decided they are prissy, hateful things that rot if you water them and when you give them less they look like dead twisted things. Hang it over the shredder and threaten it....then ignore it. lol Some orchids have nasty dispositions, just ask our pros. I joke about it, but its true. Some live, some die, some make you crazy; that's orchids.
    Connie

  8. #8
    Becky15349's Avatar
    Becky15349 is offline Senior Member
    Real Name
    Rebecca Luce
    My Grow Area
    Windowsill
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleya!!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,790
    Member's Country Flag

    Smile

    I totally hear what you are saying, John...I think this twisted, contorted 2nd leaf effects every plant from time to time. I have a few like that on my catts, but I notice that there are always other healthy growths in addition to the contorted ones growing simultaneously. Perhaps as a result of hybridization, we've created plants that grow so fast, but can only really support 1/2 of the new growths it puts out? Who knows...as long as there is some healthy uncontorted growth, I'm happy - but then again, mine are not growing in a handmade GH like yours are, so I would be more mad at my 'chids if I were you!!

  9. #9
    hera's Avatar
    hera is offline Senior Member
    My Grow Area
    On a Windowsill.
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Encyclia
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    north eastern ohio
    Posts
    190
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    I thought I read somewhere about high nitrogen causing elongated weak growth. Could this be possible. Could you have high nitrates in the water supply and be adding more with fert?

  10. #10
    Cjcorner's Avatar
    Cjcorner is offline Senior Member
    Real Name
    Connie
    My Grow Area
    Porch/Patio.
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Mini Vanda, Schombs &Encyclia.
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    West of Tampa, FL
    Posts
    9,139
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    I use rain water and feed with a mixture that I vary depending on size and type of plant. I couldn't do it that way with too many plants, for now though it's my system.
    Connie

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Bifoliate Catt Habits
    By Piper in forum Genus Specific
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: February 19th, 2009, 05:55 PM
  2. New Cattleyas
    By Cjcorner in forum Genus Specific
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: June 21st, 2007, 05:04 PM
  3. Got a yellow, limp leaf overnight
    By odabel in forum Orchid Ailments / The Compost Pile
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: April 1st, 2006, 09:59 PM
  4. Paph in bud has limp leaves
    By Cinderella in forum General Orchid Culture
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: December 10th, 2004, 10:04 AM
  5. Several Cattleyas....
    By LJA in forum Cattleyas, Vandas, Dendrobiums IN BLOOM
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: November 6th, 2004, 09:03 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
OrchidTalk --An Orchid Growers Discussion Forum brought to you by River Valley Orchidworks. A World Community where orchid beginners and experts talk about orchids and share tips on their care, cultivation, and propagation.