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Quiz. Name this orchid plant

This is a discussion on Quiz. Name this orchid plant within the Orchids of Other Genera IN BLOOM forums, part of the Orchid Photography category; Thanks PahpMadman, for the info. As a newbie it's hard enough to get the brain ...

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  1. #11
    Freddie is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks PahpMadman, for the info. As a newbie it's hard enough to get the brain wrapped around all the different species and hybrids, then they throw in name changes to make it even more confusing! So how does one know if a plant labelled as Hawkinsara is now a Guaricattonia or Cattleytonia... is it all down to parentage?

  2. #12
    PaphMadMan is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    Thanks PahpMadman, for the info. As a newbie it's hard enough to get the brain wrapped around all the different species and hybrids, then they throw in name changes to make it even more confusing! So how does one know if a plant labelled as Hawkinsara is now a Guaricattonia or Cattleytonia... is it all down to parentage?
    My head hurts even thinking about trying to explain this, but if I have another glass of wine maybe I can try. Yes, it is all down to parentage, but unless you have OrchidWiz (I wouldn’t be without it) it gets pretty tedious to track complex hybrids back to species. And even then you need some working knowledge of the species and the name changes.

    Let me make it clear that I do not want to have the debate here about the why and how of the science and personality politics of name changes in the Cattleya alliance (or any other orchids). This is about naming of horticultural hybrids, and by international agreement the RHS has the right and the responsibility to make the rules about that, and whatever they say the name of a hybrid is, that is what it is. Let me also make it clear that I did not say they are good at their job, but interpreting the science is not their weakness.

    Hawkinsara was Broughtonia x Cattleya x Laelia x Sophronitis (Bro x C x L x S) from back in the previous century sometime.

    Not much has changed about the Bro part of that. Some species have been changed to Bro over the years, but nothing that ever got registered as Bro has changed to something else, at least nothing significant or recent as far as I can see. So Bro stays as part of whatever was Hawkinsara. That is the constant in this equation.

    S all got changed to C. That is pretty simple. That reduces Hawkinsara to Laeliocatonia (Bro x C x L). But there are only a few Laeliocatonia around because…

    Most L used in this type of hybrid got changed to C. Most, not all. L anceps is still L anceps, along with L speciosa, L rubescens and some others. And some former Schomburgkia jumped to L too. As far as I can see only L anceps has contributed to hybrids that were Hawkinsara, but that accounts for a few Laeliocatonia that remain. Except for those few, that reduces Hawkinsara to Cattleytonia (Bro x C), but…

    A few C got changed to Guarianthe (Gur) along the way. This includes 2 very important species in this type if hybrid, Gur aurantiaca and Gur bowringiana. Gur skinneri is in the mix too, maybe some others. That inflates Cattleytonia to Guaricattonia (Bro x C x Gur).

    There are some Guaritonia (Bro x Gur) out there too, and at least one Laelonia (Gur x L) and one Brolaelianthe (Bro x Gur x L), but they never would have been Hawkinsara.

    So Hawkinsara usually becomes Cattleytonia unless there is Guarianthe in the mix. Then it is Guaricattonia. With a few Laeliocatonia as the exceptions.

    My advice to a newbie confused by name changes that sometimes actually happened many years before they ever had an orchid is… Forget about remembering the old names. Learn the new ones for any orchids you have or are interested in, then learn some of the backwards equivalents later if you can.

  3. #13
    Freddie is offline Junior Member
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    Wow, no wonder you needed another glass of wine before attempting to explain that lot! After reading through it, I think I'm in need of a whiskey (OMG, orchid growing causes an increase in alcohol consumption )

    Seriously though, thank you for such an interesting and informative post. Trying to keep the scientific side of hybrids straightened out appears to be somewhat of a nightmare.

    The reason for asking my question is because I have two plants that I purchased earlier this year from a grower who shows his orchids, that are tagged as Hawkinsara. And at one of the local OS shows I attended last month there were plants in the sale section that were labelled Hawkinsara. Not knowing otherwise I assumed that Hawkinsara was the correct name. So, for someone such as myself, a hobby grower not intending to show, breed or do anything other than hopefully enjoy a few nice orchid blooms, is it best to leave the plants tagged as they are or should I try to find out the correct current name and relabel them?

  4. #14
    PaphMadMan is offline Senior Member
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    Please, don't think I'm pressuring you to change tags. I'll be stoned by mobs of angry forumites who worship at the altar of the old gods... errr, names. Just keep in mind that you might see Cattleytonia or Guaricattonia instead of Hawkinsara. In fact, I strongly recommend that you always keep the original tag or at least the full information from it for all your plants. You never know when you might need it. And keep in mind that all tags eventually get faded, broken or lost. If you get beyond 3 plants you might want a back-up system. Addiing a second tag with additional/alternative information might be that back-up.

    There's a relatively easy place to look up the old/new name equivalency for your plants if you are interested.

    The International Orchid Register / RHS Gardening

    The International Orchid Register database operated by RHS. There you can look up the parents and additional information for any named cross, or enter the parents and see if a cross has been named.

    Scroll down the page to Grex Name Search and enter the name - Koolau Sunset, for example. Do not enter a genus. The search will find all crosses named Koolau Sunset. Usually there will be just one in the right alliance for your plant. The page for that grex will tell you the (currently official) genus (Cattleytonia) but it will also list a synonym genus (Hawkinsara) if there is one, usually the original genus at registration if the name has changed since.

  5. #15
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    Thank you! Appreciate the link, most helpful. Double tagging sounds like the ideal solution.

  6. #16
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    Thank you Kirk, for always keeping us up to date. Though I'm quite comfortable with the 'old gods', I have no issue with the 'new testament' ..... the RHS by any other other name....but I hope I may be forgiven for grumbling now and then with the 'new version' and not be labelled a Philistine. Rest assured you'll not be stoned by me - indeed I very much appreciate your updated info. Btw the RHS is not the only source, OrchidWiz should be considered as well, though maybe not with the same reverence.

    Am I now a 'forumite' ? Interesting word, though now I'm lumped together with the pesky spider-type and those that live among our house dust. Reminds me of the time when we Asians used to be called Asiatics.

  7. #17
    PaphMadMan is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by catttan View Post
    Btw the RHS is not the only source, OrchidWiz should be considered as well, though maybe not with the same reverence.
    OrchidWiz is my constant companion. I'm sure I could live without it, well I think so... maybe. But I really wouldn't want to try. I generally use the RHS search myself just to look for very recent registrations or confirm something unexpected, or when I'm not home. OrchidWiz is far more convenient and so so much more. They really need to come up with an Android app.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaphMadMan View Post
    OrchidWiz is my constant companion. I'm sure I could live without it, well I think so... maybe. But I really wouldn't want to try. I generally use the RHS search myself just to look for very recent registrations or confirm something unexpected, or when I'm not home. OrchidWiz is far more convenient and so so much more. They really need to come up with an Android app.
    I wish they come up up with the Mac version and make it more affordable too

  9. #19
    PaphMadMan is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by catttan View Post
    I wish they come up up with the Mac version and make it more affordable too
    Considering the huge amount of information, ability to search in different ways, time saved, and how often I use it, I actually find it quite affordable.

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