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Phragmipedium peruvianum syn. kovachii

This is a discussion on Phragmipedium peruvianum syn. kovachii within the The Outback Terrace Bar forums, part of the Land Plants category; Originally Posted by Diane I find that very surprising, as Peru has some very well ...

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  1. #21
    Mahon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane View Post
    I find that very surprising, as Peru has some very well known Botanists. But even if that is the case - my humble opinion is that it shouldn't be that you should get to name the plant just because you are the one who has the task of classifying it. I think that should be true of all species plants - that it has the native name included instead of some persons... anything that is a man made hybrid can be named whatever they want.

    But hey, no one is going to change they way it is done because of my opinion.. way too many egos involved.
    We (taxonomists) classify for the purpose of referencing and simplification. I disagree with most of the new re-classification (like Hadrolaelia for Laelia tenebrosa, and Guarianthe for Cattleya aurantica, and now Thelychiton kingianus for Dendrobium kingianum), but some of them are reasonable (most of Luer's work has some explanation of splitting species into new general; also, Pleurothallidiinae is an evergrowing Subtribe, so we cannot create the "basis" of this vast group for almost any genus)...

    As egos are concerned, this is completely irrelevant to the way a person classifies taxa. We name species after certain people to promote them... Paphiopedilum rotshchildianum is named in honor of Baron Ferdinand de Rothschild... Dendrophyllax lindenii is named in honor of Jean Linden... Jostia teaguei is named after both Lou Jost and Walter Teague... another approach to describing species is after the area where the Holotype was originally found. Yet another approach is multiple words to form an epithet which describes the floral shape, size, color, or feature... there are a few other ways of describing a specific taxon... egos do not play a part in the naming of the taxa. James Kovach wanted the plant named after him because it is like a promotion of himself. The taxonomists, naturally, would submit to describing the taxon after him (why not?)...

    I do not believe that there are many 'native' names of orchid taxa... but my question is; why use the native names that have been designated for taxa? I do not see the idealogy of it...

    Okie, I must get going, talk to you all later =)

    -P.A. Mahon

  2. #22
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    ...oh Mahon reminds me that the mans name is 'Phillip J. Cribb' and I do feel he placed the regulations on all orchids to his advantage, especially paphiopedilum. It's funny during greenhouse raids he would confiscate paphs exclusively and even though someone would have phals, catts, dends, etc. that were 'smuggled' he would never confiscate plants from other genera.
    And still he can't back up on how his regulations can increase endangered orchid populations when he is asked. I haven't heard of him doing much with wildlife conservation but rather increasing his herbarum and orchid collection, because he has the privilege to take orchids across borders.

    Well someone has to name the plants so every species is in a universal and orderly fashion. Otherwise each group of people would be calling the same thing something by a different name causing confusion. And scientists could not tell which species is related to or evolved from which species, nor will anything be well documented. If some of today's orchid discoverers were less egoistic, naming would descibe the plant. Other plants/animals have epithets that actually help descibe the species which is helpful if you knew some latin.

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    I asked a friend who'd worked some time at Kew, if Cribb lived up to his infamous reputation.

    The reply was, "Oh, certainly! Moreso. But at his age, with a facial complexion as soft as a baby's butt? He's got that going for him."

    McJulie

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper View Post
    I asked a friend who'd worked some time at Kew, if Cribb lived up to his infamous reputation.

    The reply was, "Oh, certainly! Moreso. But at his age, with a facial complexion as soft as a baby's butt? He's got that going for him."

    McJulie
    LMAO!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartie2000 View Post
    ...oh Mahon reminds me that the mans name is 'Phillip J. Cribb' and I do feel he placed the regulations on all orchids to his advantage, especially paphiopedilum. It's funny during greenhouse raids he would confiscate paphs exclusively and even though someone would have phals, catts, dends, etc. that were 'smuggled' he would never confiscate plants from other genera.
    And still he can't back up on how his regulations can increase endangered orchid populations when he is asked. I haven't heard of him doing much with wildlife conservation but rather increasing his herbarum and orchid collection, because he has the privilege to take orchids across borders.

    Well someone has to name the plants so every species is in a universal and orderly fashion. Otherwise each group of people would be calling the same thing something by a different name causing confusion. And scientists could not tell which species is related to or evolved from which species, nor will anything be well documented. If some of today's orchid discoverers were less egoistic, naming would descibe the plant. Other plants/animals have epithets that actually help descibe the species which is helpful if you knew some latin.
    Actually I have a fantastic book called "The Naming of Names" that is all about the history behind the development of naming plants...wonderful book, with a nice potanical print cover...unfortunatly all most folks saw was the title and the pink conver, so they though I was having a kid Common names, as useful as they are locally and to the general public, but crossing borders, the comon name is useless.

  6. #26
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    No, I don't mean name it just the common name, or let each region call it by a different common name, - I mean the first place it is "discovered", use their common name as the scientific name for all plants of that species... You know, so the paph in question might be called 'bolsa púrpura' by the locals, so name it paph bolsa purpura. sigh... you guys are sure hung up on being able to rename stuff some irrelavant name..

    At least they didn't do that with psychopsis papilio - as papilio means 'butterfly', which is what the flower resembles..

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    I do see where you're coming from. I think though there is a desire within taxonomy to translate over to latin, or make a latin variant of a name...its just a convention and (taxonomists, don't slay me for this) and sometimes apparently arbitrary. Its kind of like when I look at court documents for work, its repetative, flowery language, thick, and generally makes my eyes roll back into my head while rocking back and forth chanting "Scooby-Dooby-Doo!" (so, yes it can be fun working in the passport office). I often wonder why they don't just simplify the language used in court documentation (look, divorce is difficult enough, why make it more confusing by using SillySpeak (had to pay homage to Orwell's "NewSpeak" from 1984 there)...but it is a hold over from the British Court system that we once used, and apparently has this great tradition behind it (no offense to our friends from the UK). I think the same goes for taxonomy...there is this tradition of Latin-izing everything and erring from that means a break from tadition and causing alot of discomfort among their ilk (am I right?...I am putting my head down like a dog that's about to be beaten here). I believe, and again I could be wrong here, so roll up your newspaper and be prepared to give a swipe at my nose, something new in taxonomy is not accepted until its description has been printed in Latin (or is it just the name...its an interesting subject---to me al least). I am comfortable with the common usage of taxonomy...but I am somewhat resistent to the usage of kovachii. And, as the recent break-up of certain genera have shown...its not THAT difficult to change a name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane View Post

    At least they didn't do that with psychopsis papilio - as papilio means 'butterfly', which is what the flower resembles..
    True, but how about mariposa which also means buttetfly? If is found in South America, it would be using the local Spanish for what it looks like.

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    I could go for Mariposa too! At least it means something relavant. Ah well, neither you nor I will ever have any change effect on the taxonomists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane View Post
    No, I don't mean name it just the common name, or let each region call it by a different common name, - I mean the first place it is "discovered", use their common name as the scientific name for all plants of that species... You know, so the paph in question might be called 'bolsa púrpura' by the locals, so name it paph bolsa purpura. sigh... you guys are sure hung up on being able to rename stuff some irrelavant name..

    At least they didn't do that with psychopsis papilio - as papilio means 'butterfly', which is what the flower resembles..
    We are not able to scientifically name all orchids after common names, as most orchids do not have one... and I still am unsure as to the point of classifying under a common name? To name after a common name would point to irrelevancy of taxa... please elaborate more upon what you have said so we understand it better... =)

    -Pat

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