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My paph collection as of 8.21.11

This is a discussion on My paph collection as of 8.21.11 within the Paphiopedilum, Phragmipedium, Cypripedium IN BLOOM forums, part of the Orchid Photography category; Originally Posted by Kmac Maura--shouldn't a paph labelled as Supersuk 'Eureka' be genetically identical to ...

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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmac View Post
    Maura--shouldn't a paph labelled as Supersuk 'Eureka' be genetically identical to other Supersuk 'Eureka' plants, not an offspring (seed or pollen) from Eureka. Or, am I missing something?
    Kathi - Unlike phals, for instance, paphs can't be cloned or meristemmed in thousands from tissue of one plant - at least, not yet; therefore, the only way to reproduce a paph like Supersuk 'Eureka' with the same genetic material as the original one is to 1) divide it - not likely if the commercial grower wants to sell a lot of them, or 2) artificially pollinate the seeds of the parent plant with pollen from that parent plant (selfing) - or offspring or divisions thereof - and grow new plants from the seeds, which go into flasks and become seedlings, etc, etc. While the genetic material in the new seedlings will be the same as that of the parent, the flowers will be substantially the same, but not exactly the same. Genetics in orchids, and paphs and phrags in particular, is pretty complex, and I have only really a rudimentary understanding of it - this is my best attempt at the basics.

  2. #42
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    Actually, I have read that they can clone paphs now, but I think that's a fairly new development, and I don't know if it is done commercially yet.

    It was my understanding that what you describe would produce another Supersuk, but not the exact 'Eureka'...and that was why awarded paphs become so expensive (compared to awarded orchids of other 'chids). I could be wrong though...paphs aren't my "first language" so to speak!

  3. #43
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    i'm so busy last 2-3 days but still on the forum.you have a nice collection Maura.i can count from the first picture are more than 10.i love all of them.nice grow and perfect for small space,compare with cattleya

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    Maurec...fascinating, and very cool! I didn't really know what I had, obviously. I know nothing about orchid lineage, but love learning. I don't know much about the differences...only that phrags like lots of water. I have them both on my dining room table with a large eastern facing window and a ceiling fan. The phrag is sitting in a small saucer of water, and I just bought a cool mist humidifier for their pleasure. Im pretty sure it will make my other plants happy as well. (I have a Meyer lemon tree currently in bloom that gives me lemons quite regularly)

    ---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

    Oh! And to clarify, you were correct...it Is labeled supersuk eureka am/aos

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmac View Post
    Actually, I have read that they can clone paphs now, but I think that's a fairly new development, and I don't know if it is done commercially yet.

    It was my understanding that what you describe would produce another Supersuk, but not the exact 'Eureka'...and that was why awarded paphs become so expensive (compared to awarded orchids of other 'chids). I could be wrong though...paphs aren't my "first language" so to speak!
    That's really interesting about cloning paphs - I hadn't heard that it was yet possible, but my Orchid Digest subscription has yet to come, so I'm stuck with whatever info I can get from my books, the 'net, and the breeders I know. You would think that the large number of plants called Supersuk 'Eureka' makes it unlikely that each of them is a division of the original plant - particularly when they don't cost thousands. I may very well be wrong in assuming that an awarded plant when selfed results in the same cultivar as both parents - it just seems that certain awarded cultivars are too "old" and too often used in hybridizing to be the results of divisions - especially when the resulting hybrids aren't all that expensive. Certainly the most obvious way to get the actual cultivar would be a division, but even the most rapidly expanding plant would take a good deal of time to reproduce in large numbers. Generally, when I've seen divisions of paphs for sale, especially if from an awarded plant, they are in the high hundreds and thousands. I don't know - as I said, I find all this very complex and my head hurts at this point, so I'll just quit while I'm not too far behind. Maybe tomorrow I'll feel more like doing further research.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauraec View Post
    Generally, when I've seen divisions of paphs for sale, especially if from an awarded plant, they are in the high hundreds and thousands. I don't know - as I said, I find all this very complex and my head hurts at this point, so I'll just quit while I'm not too far behind. Maybe tomorrow I'll feel more like doing further research.
    That's really interesting. I've seen multiples from awarded paph grexes, but not from awarded paph cultivars....of course, that may be a function of where I am looking...I think you have better access to orchid nurseries there than I do here. Maybe at our next OS meeting I will ask one of the judges about paph cloning, and how far along that is.
    Yup, it does make one's head hurt, doesn't it?

  7. #47
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    I like your collections, they are all beautiful!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmac View Post
    That's really interesting. I've seen multiples from awarded paph grexes, but not from awarded paph cultivars....of course, that may be a function of where I am looking...I think you have better access to orchid nurseries there than I do here. Maybe at our next OS meeting I will ask one of the judges about paph cloning, and how far along that is.
    Yup, it does make one's head hurt, doesn't it?
    Okay- now I'm really confused - if a grex gets awarded, doesn't that individual plant then get a clonal name and it's that particular plant that carries the a award? Assuming the award isn't a CCM or such. So, if the plant then gets divided, it should take a little time, but those divisions will ultimately produce more growths, get divided again ad so on. It's the divisions of the original awarded plant that cost so much money - that's what I was referring to when I said hundreds and thousands. There is one particular nursery catalog online that I go through over and over again - and they offer divisions of certain plants that vary from, say, $500 to $2,000. Of course, there was a time when a division of ANY phrag kovachii fetched thousands and thousands!

    I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the only way to get a genetically identical awarded slipper is to get a division of it - there are so few around. On the other hand, using the pollen or seed from one of these plants for hybridizing with another plant can be done in great quantities. Then again, selfing an awarded plant may give you a bunch of equally awardable progeny, but often selfed clones can be weak and even crippled, so you'd really have to pick through the flasking and early seedling results.

    I'll ask the judges here at the next AOS session, too


  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauraec View Post
    Okay- now I'm really confused - if a grex gets awarded, doesn't that individual plant then get a clonal name and it's that particular plant that carries the a award?
    Yes, sorry...I should have said "a grex which has had awards come from it"...not an awarded grex. Did not mean to be confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mauraec View Post
    I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the only way to get a genetically identical awarded slipper is to get a division of it - there are so few around. On the other hand, using the pollen or seed from one of these plants for hybridizing with another plant can be done in great quantities. Then again, selfing an awarded plant may give you a bunch of equally awardable progeny, but often selfed clones can be weak and even crippled, so you'd really have to pick through the flasking and early seedling results.

    I'll ask the judges here at the next AOS session, too

    That is my understanding also. Of course, the ability to clone paphs could change all that in the future!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmac View Post
    Yes, sorry...I should have said "a grex which has had awards come from it"...not an awarded grex. Did not mean to be confusing.



    That is my understanding also. Of course, the ability to clone paphs could change all that in the future!
    Great - nice to know we are on the same page now - sorry if my novice mind has too much information in it to be expressed with any clarity at this point, but I'm trying! Thanks so much for your input!

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