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Another Paph IQ

This is a discussion on Another Paph IQ within the Paphiopedilum, Phragmipedium, Cypripedium IN BLOOM forums, part of the Orchid Photography category; Originally Posted by Piper That's ok, I think we're all painfully somewhere! ouch!...

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  1. #31
    bench72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper
    That's ok, I think we're all painfully somewhere!
    ouch!


  2. #32
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    Did anyone ever guess correctly??

    I'm so lost on this one, but I'd love to know the answer!

  3. #33
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    There have been close guesses, but its not been solidified yet. Everyone is going to think it was mislabeled, if that's a hint...

    (it wasn't, by the way)

  4. #34
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    Well,
    Since Colin managed to confuse us mightily with this one, I might as well discuss my rational for guessing this one in the open.
    The first feature of this paph that really strikes me is the petals. The petals' stance looks so similar to those of sanderianum and its hybrids. The petals are also on the long side. So I would think it has sanderianum genetics in it, probably pretty strong. So this one probably has at least 1/2 sander in it. However, the petals have other unusual characteristics like they are fat (I mean large width) - unusual if it is a pure coryos cross; pink coloration at the end that would remind me and other people of species like phil (a coryo species), lowii and haynaldianum (two popular pardalo species) although cochlo species would give you pink coloration at the tips of the petals as well as wide petals with lot of spots. The petals also have mostly spots, not stripes but we would see stripes toward the ends of the petals. The dorsals are also unusual in coloration, it has a greenish-yellowish tint. However, the shape, the stripes and degrees of stripes of the dorsals would make me think of crosses with roth in it, like MK etc... Now combining what we observe with the dorsals and the petals (although people would add on other features like the pouch, the staminode, etc...), what could be the parental lineage of this plant?

    Assuming that the plant is a cross between a primary hybrid and a species, what possibilities would give us something like that?
    We could play with different possibilities and search the web looking for something close to the mystery paph.
    The first possibility is like this: (cochlo x coryo#1) x coryo#2 where coryo #2 is sander, while coryo #1 could be roth. The cochlo species could be chamberlainianum or a similar species. These grexes are known. That would give us confidence that people have done it, for example, Lawless Transand (Transdoll x sanderianum) or Lawless Sandguard (Vanguard x sanderianum) where Transdoll is roth x liemianum and Vanguard is roth x glauco. This is also what Tim was thinking about according to one of his posts.

    The other possibility is (pardalo x coryo#1) x coryo#2 where coryo#1 is roth and coryo#2 is sander, very similar to the above except for the substitution of the pardalo species. Colin said no on this. That was where we were.

    Then Colin gave us another hint, it's all coryos! That is shocking to us since the remaining coryos species besides roth and sander would not give us features as observed here. How can that be? Unless it is a backcross where in such a cross, recessive traits might get a chance to show up. (That also was what Colin told me in one of his PMs). If that is the case, then it could be (sander x roth) x sander, i.e. it is Shin-Yi Prince. However, photos of Shin Yi Prince are nothing like what Colin posted.

    Personally I think there is a good chance that this plant is mislabeled. That happens all the times, especially at a place like the Smithsonian. A grex with cochlo species in it makes much more sense. Unfortunately, I could not find any picture of the Lawless Transand or Lawless Sandguard. If anyone of us is able to find it, please post it. Only then maybe we can say with some degree of certainty what this one is.
    Last edited by Hoa Tony Nguyen; July 10th, 2006 at 07:49 PM.

  5. #35
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    Okay - I give up. First math required for fertilizers, and now a degree in genetics to do the contests

    Colin - what the heck is it??

  6. #36
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    Sorry, Diane!

    I think you've been waiting on me. Things got busy and I was off this for a few days, and then started PM'ing Colin again over the weekend. I've submitted my final guess now...and am curious as well!

    Julie

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoa Tony Nguyen
    Then Colin gave us another hint, it's all coryos! That is shocking to us since the remaining coryos species besides roth and sander would not give us features as observed here. How can that be? Unless it is a backcross where in such a cross, recessive traits might get a chance to show up. (That also was what Colin told me in one of his PMs). If that is the case, then it could be (sander x roth) x sander, i.e. it is Shin-Yi Prince. However, photos of Shin Yi Prince are nothing like what Colin posted.

    Personally I think there is a good chance that this plant is mislabeled. That happens all the times, especially at a place like the Smithsonian. A grex with cochlo species in it makes much more sense. Unfortunately, I could not find any picture of the Lawless Transand or Lawless Sandguard. If anyone of us is able to find it, please post it. Only then maybe we can say with some degree of certainty what this one is.
    Well, tony - you got pretty darned close. I didn't want to post this until i could confirm the answer the smithsonian director had given me. It is not technically Shin Yi Prince, but a very "undesirable" representation of PEOY x Sanderianum...

    Most likely scenario i can think of is that a hobbyist with a sander and a roth decided to make his own PEOY. well, the sander was a weak parent, and the roth was strong. when his peoy finally bloomed (not very representative of what we look for in this cross), he backcrossed it on his sanderianum. The weakness of this sanderianum being thrown back into the mix, up against the strong roth means... Prominent major roth features, very weak sanderianum major features, weak roth minor features, and strong minor sanderianum features. Was that WAY too much of a runon sentence? A few people in the process of guessing actually ruled out this answer, and understandably. I didnt believe it, nor did most people whom i have told.

    As regards to mislabeling - I asked the smithsonian director to confirm it for me that it wasnt a mislabel, as that was my first reaction.

    Let the hilarity ensue...

    Great playing Diane, Tim, Tony, and Julie!! (anyone else who i forgot, im sorry - im very tired, and those are the people ive talked to most recently)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogga
    It is not technically Shin Yi Prince, but a very "undesirable" representation of PEOY x Sanderianum...
    So Colin,

    Why wouldn't this be a Shin-Yi Prince? The cross is the cross. It may be undersirable, but if the parentage is known, it is a Shin-Yi Prince. Might there be some surmise on the directors part? Could it be a NOID that he/she was trying to explain?

    Julie

  9. #39
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    Just poor wording on my part - i guess if thats technically the name for those parents, it technically is a Shin-Yi Prince, just nothing like anything you would see being sold as such.

  10. #40
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    Wow. Very different from what I've seen. But thanks for the mental gymnastics. There really is so much variation. We tend to showcase our better blooms, and it's easy to forget that less desirable genes get an equal shot at coming up.

    Thanks Colin!

    Julie

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