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Phrag D'allesandroi

This is a discussion on Phrag D'allesandroi within the Paphiopedilum, Phragmipedium, Cypripedium IN BLOOM forums, part of the Orchid Photography category; I'm not entirely sure how that works. I can try and find out. If anyone ...

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  1. #11
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    I'm not entirely sure how that works. I can try and find out. If anyone else knows, please chime in.

    Genus and species reassignments *seem* to only ever impact the individual genus or species in question, and don't appear to influence hybrid names where that genus or species was a parent. But I'm not positive that's necessarily the case.

    McJulie

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    That's true. Ecuadorense is minutely different from pearcei and it is now considered a synonym for pearcei, yet still Phrag ecua-bess is still registered, and this is the only one.

    I did furthur searching. The 18 first generation dalessandroi hybrids that I counted registered right now were all registered by the Eric Young Foundation in 2004. I read they re-registered them as soon as they found out the 'besseae' they were using was actually a dalessandroi. No one else is registering dalessandroi, so it seems like it doesn't matter. I would think there were more dalessandroi registered and on different dates.

    I think it's possible that the RHS registry is keeping these names just in case the the taxonomists want to reconize these as species, for record keeping. Some phal hybrids have some confused parentage due to the splitting of one species into two or something (this incident I'm not familiar with), and I assume they want to avoid an incident like that. But this only works if they plant breeders are labelling plants correctly, and more of these variants/synonyms are registered otherwise they just float around as a normal besseae hybrids and its history gets lost....

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    Very nice photo shot, the color is bright.

  4. #14
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    I looked under Kew Monocot Checklist and found that dalessandroi is listed as Phragmipedium besseae var. dalessandroi. I guess then your right then Julie, its just a besseae.

    Also Kyle said it is not a dalessandroi and he's worked with many besseaes/dalessandroi , and Tom Kalina said that all (`Echo' x `Doug Pulley') were really Jersey. It's a sib cross so then two Jerseys were crossed together probably.

    Then its called Phrag besseae var. Jersey? lol...

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    I'll add my two cents (of course, over at another forum, my two cents causes outrage!):

    With discussions with Cal Dodson (who described Phrag. besseae and Phrag. dalessandroi), he regards them both being separate species. Morphologically, they both look alike, but there is much more than just looks. Phrag. dalessandroi has an extra pair of chromosomes than Phrag. besseae. This alone is enough basis to segregate the two as distinct species. It is ONLY coincidental that both species are found in the same country. Here's where it gets more interesting... the populations of Phrag. dalessandroi are more located in the center of Phrag. besseae populations, with very little or no overlap. This just adds to the basis of segregation between the two. Phrag. besseae was discovered first, so it is widely regarded as being more "primitive" than the newer Phrag. dalessandroi. This is not the case, and it is suspected that plants of Phrag. besseae actually originated from Phrag. dalessandroi populations. Dodson is against splitting species, but it should be noted he is adamant about the split being accepted (he regards Phrag. fischeri as a variation that fits nicely in the concept of Phrag. schlimii, which I see differently). It depends on one's point of view. The cytogenetical analysis should be enough for a split, but Cribb sees differently...

    As for your Phrag., it looks to be Phrag. Jersey, but that's my dull opinion. There are clashes of both characteristics of both species present. What I find more interesting is the inherited dorsal sepal, which is the same shaping of Phrag. dalessandroi found in Zamora (the original type location for this species)... here are some old posted pics to compare your plant to mine for identification:

    Phragmipedium dalessandroi (notice the "doggedness" of the petals, and how the tips are rounded)


    Phragmipedium besseae (notice how the petals are held horizontal, and how the tips come to a sharp point)


    Hope this helps some That's a great plant and the color is striking!

    -Pat

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    Thanks Pat. Interesting and helpful info on the populations.
    Olaf's attitude suggests both should be distinct species too, and I agree with that (and I thought Julie was off which is why I continued to search for an answer), even though not everyone agrees on the splitting at the moment.
    Kyle has suggested some morphological differences in another forum thread based on staminode, inflorescent and growth habit. (I know Mahon said somewhere staminode and labellums aren't enough for ID based on Dodson) Kyle is publishing some findings in German, I don't know what they are. He's in Germany right now, perhaps meeting with Olaf. Everyone agrees they have different chromosome numbers probably a key for identification.

    More people should be registering dalessandroi crosses, before genetic history gets really lost, even if many besseaes are already mixed, perhaps with dalessandroi somewhere...there possibily could be differences in the hybrids
    I think Ron's "eric young" (longifolium x dalessandroi) should be given a new grex.
    Last edited by smartie2000; March 19th, 2007 at 11:21 PM.

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