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Phalaenopsis Liodora

This is a discussion on Phalaenopsis Liodora within the Phalaenopsis, Oncidium, & Intergenerics IN BLOOM forums, part of the Orchid Photography category; Originally Posted by Halloamey Its not about liking aparticular name, its because the genealogy of ...

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  1. #21
    Michael Saar is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloamey View Post
    Its not about liking aparticular name, its because the genealogy of one of the parent is unclear, which I pointed out in the earlier post
    Under that rationale, I would propose that both parents are probably questionable. Sweet Memory was registered as a hybrid in 1982. Phal. bellina was not recognized as a separate species (from violacea) until 1995. So is this Sweet Memory, or Lydia Tobia (Deventeria X violaeca)? Or, since bellina (violacea Borneo and violacea (Malaya) were regularly crossed and named violacea (not Samera = bellina X violacea) before 1995, might it be the unnamed hybrid (Samera X Deventeriana)? As long as the parents are named violacea and Deventeriana, the offspring are de facto named Sweet Memory. And "Liodora" has not been registered with the RHS, and is therefore an "unregistered" hybrid.
    The main point I was making was that Bock's entire range of Phal mericlones have names that appear to bear no relation RHS registered names (unless their actual name tags have real names or parentage). That doesn't make them "bad" plants, or ugly flowers. The real danger, if there is one, is not the unregistered names, but the use of previously registered names (i.e. Roulette).

  2. #22
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    Gorgeous - is this your mothers' doing?

  3. #23
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    Everything that happens in my greenhouse in India is my mother's doing at the moment LOL.
    Quote Originally Posted by panam View Post
    Gorgeous - is this your mothers' doing?

  4. #24
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    Yes that is always a problematic case, re-classifications and authentic parentage of old hybrids. The names that have been registered should not be allowed to be given to new hybrids though. But its not just Bock all the major plant producers in Netherlands and some producers in the US do not register the plants, in some cases like many Colmanaras and oncidiums, the names are registered at the RHS but not the parentage, may be thats their company secret or something. Check this out, Colmanara Masai red is a very famous orchid in the Europe, mass cultivated and sold at every nursery throughout the year, but the only the name is registered at the RHS
    The International Orchid Register / RHS Gardening
    So different companies can sell similar looking plants with different parentages as Masai red. So all this nomenclature is fishy anyways LOL, it all comes down to you, how much you want to believe in it and how much can be proved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Saar View Post
    Under that rationale, I would propose that both parents are probably questionable. Sweet Memory was registered as a hybrid in 1982. Phal. bellina was not recognized as a separate species (from violacea) until 1995. So is this Sweet Memory, or Lydia Tobia (Deventeria X violaeca)? Or, since bellina (violacea Borneo and violacea (Malaya) were regularly crossed and named violacea (not Samera = bellina X violacea) before 1995, might it be the unnamed hybrid (Samera X Deventeriana)? As long as the parents are named violacea and Deventeriana, the offspring are de facto named Sweet Memory. And "Liodora" has not been registered with the RHS, and is therefore an "unregistered" hybrid.
    The main point I was making was that Bock's entire range of Phal mericlones have names that appear to bear no relation RHS registered names (unless their actual name tags have real names or parentage). That doesn't make them "bad" plants, or ugly flowers. The real danger, if there is one, is not the unregistered names, but the use of previously registered names (i.e. Roulette).
    Last edited by Halloamey; July 21st, 2011 at 03:13 AM.

  5. #25
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    Do you have a picture of the original Roulette, I am unable to find one, also no pictures of either parents of the original Roulette. But one of the parents Phalaenopsis Cher Ann is known to produce some mottling in the offspring, so I am not sure if this Harlequin Roulette is a progeny of Cher Ann or not it is quite possible.

  6. #26
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    Stunning Phal. Your mom did very well!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Halloamey View Post
    Do you have a picture of the original Roulette, I am unable to find one, also no pictures of either parents of the original Roulette. But one of the parents Phalaenopsis Cher Ann is known to produce some mottling in the offspring, so I am not sure if this Harlequin Roulette is a progeny of Cher Ann or not it is quite possible.
    This is Phal Roulette from O-wiz.

    Name:  Roulette.jpg
Views: 636
Size:  260.0 KB

    cheers,
    BD

  7. #27
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    Bruce a impressive Phalaenopsis flower and you captured it perfectly in this photo. AL

  8. #28
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    OK. Roulette =(Cher Ann X Chuck's Red Lip) was registered by Hans Koch in 1976. Cher Ann has several AOS awards between 1965 and 1973; all are traditional white/red lip. (photos in AOS Orchids Plus). Neither Roulette nor Chuck's Red Lip have been awarded by AOS, but there is nothing their breeding to create something like that photo. I can't get to my OrchidWiz right now, but will look at Roulette in the morning. Bruce's photo and Bock's are essentially the same flower, and the breeding is pretty obviously a harlequin-type stripe obtained by crossing a traditional stripe with a harlequin. There is nothing in the background of Roulette (1976) that would produce that type of stripe. The problem is not a future problem but a current problem. A photo of Bock's Roulette has been submitted to OrchidWiz and not verified, since there are no other photos for comparison. (The RHS should have one, since it's a requirement for registration) Anyone not familiar with the (registered) breeding of Roulette (1976) could take it as legitimate and use it in breeding, creating another grex of questionable parentage.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Saar View Post
    There is nothing in the background of Roulette (1976) that would produce that type of stripe.
    I have no idea about Phal. crossings or their inheritance, but I have seen some pictures of Cher Ann progeny like Phal. Golden Buddha (Cher Ann x Spica) which have spotted pattern not like this Harlequin but it does have a tendency to produce spots or it could be because of spika??

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Saar View Post
    (The RHS should have one, since it's a requirement for registration)
    I also thought so, but is it a requirement?? Because I have bought many blue cattleya crosses directly from a breeder in Berlin, the crosses are registered at the RHS with the names he has given me, but he said he had no pictures of the flowers that I could expect to see, just the pictures of the parents, for eg. here is just one of the 20 or so plants that I got from him, all registered crosses this one is called Rhyncattleanthe Berlin Boy
    The International Orchid Register / RHS Gardening
    He has no pictures of the flowers

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Saar View Post
    The problem is not a future problem but a current problem. Anyone not familiar with the (registered) breeding of Roulette (1976) could take it as legitimate and use it in breeding, creating another grex of questionable parentage.
    I completely agree with this, using this Roulette as a parent without confirming the identity will surely lead to more confusion.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by orchidsal View Post
    Bruce a impressive Phalaenopsis flower and you captured it perfectly in this photo. AL
    Thanks Al, but that photo is from Orchidwiz. I only copy and pasted it here to aid in this discussion if possible.

    cheers,
    BD

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