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Phal Bellina, Violacea, or Both?

This is a discussion on Phal Bellina, Violacea, or Both? within the Phalaenopsis, Oncidium, & Intergenerics IN BLOOM forums, part of the Orchid Photography category; Maura its just like splitting the ends of an hair !! Yew, all Phals are ...

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  1. #11
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    Maura its just like splitting the ends of an hair !! Yew, all Phals are diploid with a chromosome no. 2x of 38, there are just two types, the phals with small chromosomes and the phals wih big chromosomes. Unfortunately both violacea and bellina which according to me are the same have big chromosomes. But yes with all the interbreeding etc even a whole genomic sequence will not be able to distinguish these two species.
    Quote Originally Posted by catttan View Post
    These are outstanding violacea/bellina, Maura. There is so much inbreeding and crossbreeding between these two that it would be extremely difficult to ID unless we do a chromosone count. BTW great photos.

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    You know, Amey, with that further explanation, I think you've put a very nice closing to this conversation of bellinas vs. violaceas. I am now simply going to enjoy mine without worrying anout ids anymore. As far as I am concerned, it's a phal. bellina var.violacea, with apologies to Mr. Christensen! And it's my favorite orchid right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloamey View Post
    Maura its just like splitting the ends of an hair !! Yew, all Phals are diploid with a chromosome no. 2x of 38, there are just two types, the phals with small chromosomes and the phals wih big chromosomes. Unfortunately both violacea and bellina which according to me are the same have big chromosomes. But yes with all the interbreeding etc even a whole genomic sequence will not be able to distinguish these two species.
    I'm sorry Amey. I should have said DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloamey View Post
    Maura its just like splitting the ends of an hair !! Yew, all Phals are diploid with a chromosome no. 2x of 38, there are just two types, the phals with small chromosomes and the phals wih big chromosomes. Unfortunately both violacea and bellina which according to me are the same have big chromosomes. But yes with all the interbreeding etc even a whole genomic sequence will not be able to distinguish these two species.
    In nature that's largely true, but google phalaenopsis ploidy and read up on tetraploids, triploids, aneuploid, etc...

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    Yup, I know about this, but the discussion was about using using chromosome counts or DNA evidence to differentiate two naturally occuring Phal. species and not hybrids created by human manipulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayfar View Post
    In nature that's largely true, but google phalaenopsis ploidy and read up on tetraploids, triploids, aneuploid, etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloamey View Post
    Yup, I know about this, but the discussion was about using using chromosome counts or DNA evidence to differentiate two naturally occuring Phal. species and not hybrids created by human manipulation.
    I see your point. Although there are cultivars of Phal species that are other than diploid, per the Confirmed Ploidy database, the ploidy isn't going to tell us whether this is violacea or bellina.

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    Exactly. We can create polyploids at varying levels, like infertile triploids (which for some reason are even better flowered than tetraploids) or fully fertile tetraploids of the same species.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayfar View Post
    I see your point. Although there are cultivars of Phal species that are other than diploid, per the Confirmed Ploidy database, the ploidy isn't going to tell us whether this is violacea or bellina.

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    I wonder how on earth and why Eric Christensen decided Phal. violace var. bellina was a separate species, and call it Phal. bellina?

    About polyploidy..... I had a pretty good grounding in this topic as it pertains to phrags from visiting with a local phrag and paph breeder. As far as phrags go, you're right, Amey, triploids flower faster, bigger, and better than tetraploids, in general anyway. On the other hand, as I understand it, you need at least one tetraploid "stud" plant to cross with a diploid (often species) to produce all those wonderful but toally infertile triploid beauties. I believe my Phrag. kovachii hybrid (crossed with Eric Young) is supposed to be a triploid, but perhaps its size and bountiful huge flowers are due only to the impact of the huge size of the kovachii. My plant is also about 8 years old, so that helps with its strength and form. As a curiosity item, it belonged to Norito Hasegawa when it first came from Peru when they first started allowing kovachii hybrids - no species - out of Peru. The species kovachiis from Peru haveen't been around too long, although I believe that the top breeders have already raised some fabulous plants.

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    Since I was the one that started this ploidy thing by my boo-boo of saying 'chromosome' instead of DNA I would like to say something on the triploids but only pertaining to 2 vandas that I'm familiar with, which are V Tan Chay Yan and V Nellie Morley. Both these vandas are arguably the most beautiful (my opinion) semi-teretes and both are triploids and supposed to be mules.In the 1960's every strap leaved vanda was crossed with both these semi-teretes both in Malaya/Singapore and Hawaii. As expected most crosses did not take with a few exceptions - fertile mules? - notably V Janet Kanealii ( V Nellie Morley x sanderiana) in Hawaii; and V TS Kuah ( TCY x sanderiana) and V Mimi Palmer (TCY x tessellata). The best V Janet Kanealii and V TS Kuah were definitely equal to or even surpassing the beauty of their respective parents. I had a compot of V Janet Kanealii but none survived to maturity ( I had to pay a half a hand and foot for this compot). Later I bought a Blooming size Jane Kanealii which died after 3 years. It never bloomed nor grew beyond its initial size but produced keikis that got smaller and smaller and eventually the whole plant died. A friend of mine crossed a TCY with his award-winning V Rothchildiana, in spite of being told that it would not succeed. BTW this Rothchildiana was featured on the cover of one of the issues of the Malayan Orchid Review. He managed to obtain about 40 seedlings and after much persuasion I pried one seedling in a thumbpot off him. This plant was very robust and it ended in the collection of another friend, who had promised to give me a cutting or a keiki. It bloomed twice with the most gorgeous deep 'blue' flowers with excellent substance, albeit smaller than both parents. Impatience got the better of the friend and he made a top cut of the plant to force it to produce keikis. Both .the top cut and stump died. I wish this story had a happy ending but when I went back to the originator of the cross to try to get another plant I learnt that the friend had fallen upon hard times and had a host of personal problems and had relocated, leaving what was left of his badly neglected plants in the care of his aged mother. Nothing was heard of him or his plants.

    I don't know how many TCY hybrids are still in existence but V Mimi Palmer seems to be used extensively to produce hybrids notably the Teo Boon Hian clone. Cathy has some of the most gorgeous of these hybrids. A nursery here has V Mimi Palmer x Kultana Gold but I reckon 90 percent are useless. I picked one sometime ago that was just passable but still nothing to be excited about.

  10. #20
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    No boo-boo Yew without you having started this we would never heard this excellent albeit sad story. Triploids are not completely infertile atleast theoretically and practically. When any organism forms its gametes (in this case ovules or pollen) the cells and DNA undergo a reductional division, i.e. a diploid (2n) gamete mother cell gives rise to two haploid (n) gametes. So when a pollen (n) again unites with a Ovule (n) the diploid no. (2n) is restored.
    Now consider the case of triploids (3n) when the mother cell undergoes meiosis there will be theoretically gametes with (1.5n) and generally there are genes that control gamete formation strictly they detect this to be an aberration leading to controlled death of such gametes, but due to a chance event sometimes during meiosis there is unequal division i.e. a (3n) mother cell divides to form two unequal gametes (2n) and (1n) in this case as you see the gametes are functional and can be fertilized leading to the formation of offspring.
    Quote Originally Posted by catttan View Post
    Since I was the one that started this ploidy thing by my boo-boo of saying 'chromosome' instead of DNA I would like to say something on the triploids but only pertaining to 2 vandas that I'm familiar with, which are V Tan Chay Yan and V Nellie Morley. Both these vandas are arguably the most beautiful (my opinion) semi-teretes and both are triploids and supposed to be mules.In the 1960's every strap leaved vanda was crossed with both these semi-teretes both in Malaya/Singapore and Hawaii. As expected most crosses did not take with a few exceptions - fertile mules? - notably V Janet Kanealii ( V Nellie Morley x sanderiana) in Hawaii; and V TS Kuah ( TCY x sanderiana) and V Mimi Palmer (TCY x tessellata). The best V Janet Kanealii and V TS Kuah were definitely equal to or even surpassing the beauty of their respective parents. I had a compot of V Janet Kanealii but none survived to maturity ( I had to pay a half a hand and foot for this compot). Later I bought a Blooming size Jane Kanealii which died after 3 years. It never bloomed nor grew beyond its initial size but produced keikis that got smaller and smaller and eventually the whole plant died. A friend of mine crossed a TCY with his award-winning V Rothchildiana, in spite of being told that it would not succeed. BTW this Rothchildiana was featured on the cover of one of the issues of the Malayan Orchid Review. He managed to obtain about 40 seedlings and after much persuasion I pried one seedling in a thumbpot off him. This plant was very robust and it ended in the collection of another friend, who had promised to give me a cutting or a keiki. It bloomed twice with the most gorgeous deep 'blue' flowers with excellent substance, albeit smaller than both parents. Impatience got the better of the friend and he made a top cut of the plant to force it to produce keikis. Both .the top cut and stump died. I wish this story had a happy ending but when I went back to the originator of the cross to try to get another plant I learnt that the friend had fallen upon hard times and had a host of personal problems and had relocated, leaving what was left of his badly neglected plants in the care of his aged mother. Nothing was heard of him or his plants.

    I don't know how many TCY hybrids are still in existence but V Mimi Palmer seems to be used extensively to produce hybrids notably the Teo Boon Hian clone. Cathy has some of the most gorgeous of these hybrids. A nursery here has V Mimi Palmer x Kultana Gold but I reckon 90 percent are useless. I picked one sometime ago that was just passable but still nothing to be excited about.

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