Paph anitum and a noid

[mauraec]

Maudiae type with philppinense IMO.

Maudiae, I would think, would have a longer inflorescence than this looks like, and if it has sequential blooms, then it's got strap-leaved in it - Maudiaes rarely have more than 2 blooms, and those are usually in front and back at the top of the inflorescence. The length, color, and degree of hairiness of the inflorescence is a good clue to some of its background - for instance, paph. hirsutissimum has some of this noid's characteristics, but it's one-flowered with strap leaves. Coloratum, barbatum, callosum, coloratum, fairreanum, and victoria-regina all could have contributions to this along the way - not an inclusive list, of course. What I have been told by the AOS judges to look for is whether the dorsal sepal "flips" down or up, are vertically veined or spotted, whether the side sepals open along a horizontal plane, or fall more vertically, whether they are reflexed or deflexed, straight or undulated, the relative sizes of the sepals and pouch, but since any recognizable, or at least aesthetically pleasing shape will get a hybrid half-way to being notable, but they really are looking for the richest burgundy/red/maroon/wine colors on any paph that is primarily vinicolored like this one is - lesser color is okay if you've got a species, but the hybrids are closely looked at for richness of color. All of which has little to do with how pretty the paph is, really. In my humble, junior, easily-retracted opinion, this looks like it has strap-leaved and Maudiae both, with the actual parentage hybridized so many generations ago that it might even take the Orchidwiz detectives some time to figure it out.

But, it opened! And it's pretty! Keep it alive for the next blooming and as it multiplies and matures, you'll really be cruising with a very cool paph that you alone possess!

Unless you're going to do some hybridizing, I think species paphs are a bit overrated - if I could get my hands on lots of reasonably priced and healthy "paphnoids", I'd have them all over my house on display. Good growing!

Maura

[Roy]

Interesting but totally confusing. If you try to determine any orchid, let alone Paphs under this theory you'd be in the company of people in white coats very quickly.

[mauraec]

Interesting but totally confusing. If you try to determine any orchid, let alone Paphs under this theory you'd be in the company of people in white coats very quickly.

Sorry for any confusion, but the fact is, hybrid paphs, whether tagged or noids, are inherently confusing. I mentioned a variety of characteristics possibly contributed by any number of different generations of hybridizing, because I have been fortunate enough to have several AOS judges, all of whom have undergone years of rigorous training, explain their thought processes to me after judging several specific hybrid paphs. They know what they are looking for, whether using objective and/or subjective standards, and they have made eminent sense to me; but they aren't required to make sense, or even explain their decisions to anyone, and in the orchid world, they have the final word on official recognition of quality. Of course, AOS awards don't control personal tastes, and paphs can be very pretty, thank goodness, without having to meet strict standards. My post was not intended to lay out a "theory" to "determine" any orchid, whatever you meant by that, but to share a little of the insight I have gained through my experiences with judging events. Hope this helps to clarify things for you.

[Dorsetman]

That cannot be anitum. Anitum doesn't have mottled leaves. I believe what you have is a (Maudiae type x multiflora) hybrid. The noID looks a lot like paph Conestoga (philippinense x concolor).

Yes ; I am raising a flask of anitum and they are not mottle leaved. As to your hybrid whatever it is , it is most interesting.and one I'd be very happy to see in my collection, with or without a label ; that pouch is an unusual shape , and when trying to guess the parents, look too at the rostellum - it is very helpful in leading to one of the parents at least.

[delphiguy]

Looks like the vendor (whoever that was, intentionally or not) fooled you in selling what is supposed to be an anitum. Seems a bit rampant lately among some (non-established) local vendors nowadays during shows or even at some local flea/garden markets.

Oh well .....

I have to agree with you Jojo, anyways its not a loss for me as I like the bloom on this one and the wife does too.

[delphiguy]

Thanks for the comment guys, Im definitely keeping this one and hoping for a better blooming next time, this is a multi growth plant (about 6-7).

[Roy]

[QUOTE=mauraec;260838]Sorry for any confusion QUOTE]

I've re-read what you wrote & I now understand. I have been a Judge with the Australian Orchid Council for around 30 years, I've judged at many Conferences & shows along side many judges from the USA. Thoughts, theories, rigorous training, nothing different to what I've done. If you analise properly all this, it comes down to nothing. Features or even minor points from the parents of a plant going back to the species can be found in nearly every flower you see. Recognising what individual parents do in a hybrid and in other similar or related crosses seen over the years does a lot better job than anything. Regardless of the training, nothing beats personal observation & the breeding of orchids to learn the traits that each contribute. A good retentive memory works very well.

[mauraec]

[QUOTE=Roy;261035]

Sorry for any confusion QUOTE]

I've re-read what you wrote & I now understand. I have been a Judge with the Australian Orchid Council for around 30 years, I've judged at many Conferences & shows along side many judges from the USA. Thoughts, theories, rigorous training, nothing different to what I've done. If you analise properly all this, it comes down to nothing. Features or even minor points from the parents of a plant going back to the species can be found in nearly every flower you see. Recognising what individual parents do in a hybrid and in other similar or related crosses seen over the years does a lot better job than anything. Regardless of the training, nothing beats personal observation & the breeding of orchids to learn the traits that each contribute. A good retentive memory works very well.

I'm extremely glad I didn't know I was dealing with an orchid judge when our posts crossed; however, I do not believe that we differ on actual substance and experience - and your comment about personal observation is absolutely dead-on. There are several judges here in the Atlanta area who specialize in paphs (and phrags, too), who have spent an inordinate amount of time going over about 10 of my own plants and several submitted by others - there is no substitute for schooling in that style. In fact, my 3 real areas of interest in orchids - paphs, cyms, and catts, are largely a result of having been taken in hand personally by kind and qualified experts with regard to specific plants from those genera. I tend to like many subjects over which I have had the opportunity to gain experience and a degree of understanding; With respect to your observation about having a "good, retentive memory", learning about orchids has replaced my prior professional involvement with the U.S. Tax Code. I see tremendous similarities between the 2 subjects, most of which, no doubt, are entirely obscure to most people. Essentially, despite a lot of specifics and exceptions noted in analysis, tax law ultimately depends on policy, and orchid evaluation on the eyes of the beholder - Chacun a son gout et vive la difference!

[Roy]

Your right, I think we are on the same page except that getting involved with "experts" can be a problem. I've found that they have their own opinions & given their position, tend to be believed more, even if doubt is evident, others don't won't to be seen as "questioning" their words. A big failling not to. Listen to what they say but do your own research & form your own opinion. You have to be inderpendant. Over the years I've questioned everyone, regardless of their supposed statis. It hasn't made me popular, particularly when you catch them out but atleast you know if they are full of it or genuine.

[mauraec]

Your right, I think we are on the same page except that getting involved with "experts" can be a problem. I've found that they have their own opinions & given their position, tend to be believed more, even if doubt is evident, others don't won't to be seen as "questioning" their words. A big failling not to. Listen to what they say but do your own research & form your own opinion. You have to be inderpendant. Over the years I've questioned everyone, regardless of their supposed statis. It hasn't made me popular, particularly when you catch them out but atleast you know if they are full of it or genuine.

Excellent. I am choosing to receive your last post as an indication of willingness to add to the balance of all the expert advice I've been given. (By the way, although there have certainly been others, the "experts" I have received advice from, and listened to closely, on this forum, are Geoff Hands, Yew, and Amey). Now I shall add you to the list.

Current problem: In 7 days I leave for a road trip home (New England for me), and will be gone at least 5 weeks. My Orchid Society friends have shied away from taking on the task of watering while I'm away. Phillip is bringing his bonsais (about 11) to another bonsai grower, and that kind gentleman has agreed to take on "a few" of my orchids. We have translated that into about 10 at the most - out of 50+ that I have now collected. I grow on window shelving, deck shelving, and a few under grow lights - no greenhouse. My question is, which of my plants are going to need close monitoring and which I can set up to at least survive my absence. I specifically ask you because I have 3 fabulous paphs in early bloom, and 8 others just beginning vigorous new growth. Given that paphs generally need watering more often (mine are in a free-draining, radiata bark, charcoal, and a little terrestrial media), and 5 of these paphs have already won awards, I'm concerned that they will suffer greatly from lack of care. Do you have any experience or advice with entrusting yours to a non-expert, or setting up a long-term vacation-watering system that would work by itself? I would be grateful for any ideas you might have. Thanks, Maura