How to name a cross?

[Katherine]

Now that would be exciting!

[pipsxlch]

One thing I've wondered... let's say Jenn starts her hybridizing program, and one of the plants she uses is an unregistered hybrid (let's call it Phal. [Tom x Sue]). The cross is successful, and the babies she blooms out are phenomenal, so of course she wishes to register the cross. However, P. Tom x Sue is still unregistered according to RHS, and she doesn't know who made the cross. Would she be allowed to register her cross as P. Bob x (Tom x Sue) or would she be forced to register the Tom x Sue first?
I know in some plants crosses from unnamed crosses- even a few generations of them- seem to be acceptable (even sometimes from unkown parentage, but not going there).

Also, I've sometimes seen selfed or sib crosses of a hybrid sold under that hybrid name- this doesn't seem quite kosher, since the genes can pair up quite different from what is typical for the hybrid. Is this legitimate naming?

[Michael Saar]

1. Preceding cross(es) must be named first
2. Selfing or sib crosses carry the same grex name.

[OrchidAddict]

One thing I've wondered... let's say Jenn starts her hybridizing program, and one of the plants she uses is an unregistered hybrid (let's call it Phal. [Tom x Sue]). The cross is successful, and the babies she blooms out are phenomenal, so of course she wishes to register the cross. However, P. Tom x Sue is still unregistered according to RHS, and she doesn't know who made the cross. Would she be allowed to register her cross as P. Bob x (Tom x Sue) or would she be forced to register the Tom x Sue first?

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this, but I've actually seen plants sold like this online. I'm assuming "Tom" and "Sue" are actual registered hybrids or clonal names, right? So let's say I cross my lobbii with the unnamed/unregistered hybrid of "TomxSue." I've seen people who would sell it as Phalaenopsis lobbi x ('Tom'x'Sue'). I'm not sure if this is legit, but I see a bunch of people doing it. It's a great question, though.

I do have a Norton cross that would be great for breeding if it blooms out indigo. That would be one of those cases, because the Norton cross doesn't have a registered clonal name, but on the tag it says Phalaenopsis Violacea 'Mademoiselle Bleu' AM/AOS x 'Peek-a-Blue AM/AOS.' If I cross it with something I'll need to know how to label the resulting plant.

I actually did see one seller online who has the same Norton cross I do, and he crossed it with something else and just named the resulting plant something completely new. It was just called Phalaenopsis 'Blue Dream' or something. He then put the Norton information and the name of the other parent in parenthesis so we would know who the parents were. I'm not sure if that's okay, but from what I've been reading in this thread, it seems a breeder can call a plant whatever he/she wants if the breeder is selling commercially, so I'm guessing he cloned the heck out of the resulting plant and just gave it a special name to distinguish it from the other violaceas.

Also, I've sometimes seen selfed or sib crosses of a hybrid sold under that hybrid name- this doesn't seem quite kosher, since the genes can pair up quite different from what is typical for the hybrid. Is this legitimate naming?

I'm pretty sure I can answer this one after having so much help from our friends here. I think you might be confusing the hybrid name with the clonal or cultivar name. A hybrid name does not appear in quotes and refers simply to any resulting cross of two types of parents. For example, I have a Phalaenopsis Princess Kaiulani. That's a hybrid name that indicates a crossing of violacea x amboinensis, so it is not in quotes and it applies to any offspring produced by crossing a violacea and an amboinensis. I happen to have a violacea and an amboinensis. If I cross them, the resulting plants will all be called Phalaenopsis Princess Kaiulani, but they probably won't look exactly like someone else's. There can be quite a bit of variation within a hybrid, which is why you see some plants getting awarded and others with the same hybrid name being passed over.

If I were to "self" my Princess Kaiulani, it would still be a Princess Kaiulani, because it's still the result of the combination of the genetics from the amboinensis and the violacea.

Where a name can't carry over is when it's a name in quotations, which indicates a clonal or cultivar name. Then it only applies to that one specific plant or an exact copy of that plant produced artificially in the lab via tissue sample or meristem. For example, one of the parents of my Norton cross is Phalaenopsis violacea 'Peek-a-Blue' AM/AOS. That name can only apply to that one plant, or exact copies of it. If the Nortons were to "self" their 'Peek-a-Blue' AM/AOS, it would no longer carry the 'Peek-a-Blue' name or the award. They could sell it as Phalaenopsis violacea ('Peek-a-Blue' x self) if they wanted people to know what they were getting, but that wouldn't be the plant's formal name. It would formally just be a Phalaenopsis violacea. Likewise if they crossed it with a sibling...it would just be Phalaenopsis violacea, although they could certainly indicate in the description that it's a 'Peek-a-Blue' x sib.

[OrchidAddict]

1. Preceding cross(es) must be named first
2. Selfing or sib crosses carry the same grex name.

OOh, I just saw this. When you say that preceding crosses must be named first, I'm assuming you mean they need a grex name, right? But not necessarily a clonal or cultivar name? I want to make sure I have this straight.

So, you're saying you can't make a cross and label it Phalaenopsis speciosa x (lobbi x violacea)because the cross of lobbii and violacea is unregistered and has no grex name, right?

But selling something as Phalaenopsis speciosa x (violacea 'Peek-a-Blue'AM/AOS x violacea 'Mademoiselle Bleu' AM/AOS) is technically okay, because that's not the plant's real name. The plant's real name would be Phalaenopsis Germaine Vincent, because that's the grex name for speciosa x violacea.

Is that right?

[Michael Saar]

OOh, I just saw this. When you say that preceding crosses must be named first, I'm assuming you mean they need a grex name, right? But not necessarily a clonal or cultivar name? I want to make sure I have this straight.

To REGISTER a grex name, all previous grexes in its background must be named first.

So, you're saying you can't make a cross and label it Phalaenopsis speciosa x (lobbi x violacea)because the cross of lobbii and violacea is unregistered and has no grex name, right?

It's perfectly fine to represent a grex as above. You can't REGISTER the grex name until (lobbii x violacea) have been named and REGISTERED.

But selling something as Phalaenopsis speciosa x (violacea 'Peek-a-Blue'AM/AOS x violacea 'Mademoiselle Bleu' AM/AOS) is technically okay, because that's not the plant's real name. The plant's real name would be Phalaenopsis Germaine Vincent, because that's the grex name for speciosa x violacea.

Is that right?

It's OK, but no more or less OK than (speciosa x violacea). Ethically they are equivalent. You need to distinguish between what is ethical and what is REQUIRED to comply with procedures to register a grex with the RHS International Orchid Register.

[OrchidAddict]

Aaah...okay. Thanks for clarifying, Michael! So basically it all boils down to whether you want to make your name "official" by registering your cross.

I've been studying up on which phal crosses have been registered and which haven't, just to see if I'd have any interest in attempting to make a new primary hybrid. One particular website lists all the possible crosses and posts pics of the grexes known to have successfully bloomed, along with the name of the person who registered each grex. But occasionally they'll have a photo with a person's name credited to the picture, but then under the grex name it will say "unregistered."

What do I do if I know someone has already bloomed a cross of two species plants, but that this person has not registered the cross? There's a cross I saw which was GORGEOUS, and I happen to have the two species parents, and I'd love to re-create it, but I have no idea what the rules are when someone else has already done it but not registered it.

Does anyone know what to do in this case? Thanks! I'm so happy this thread is still alive! I've learned TONS!!

[pipsxlch]

Thanks. I meant the grex name, not the clonal name. So like with my dens, any Blue Twinkle selfed or x another Blue Twinkle, be it the individuals 'Carmelas', 'Louise', unnamed or whichever- doesn't matter. It seems problematic to me from my background with animal genetics- best illustration I can think of at the moment is dogs; if you cross a Beagle with a Pug it's a Puggle. Puggles are quite consistent in type and personality. However, if you cross two Puggles, the resulting pups are technically still 50% Pug and 50% Beagle but will be all over the board in type- some will show a lot of Beagle, some mostly Pug, some will be a weird mishmash of traits and some will be like their F1 parents. In the first generation, you know it's 50% each, but the genes can split and pair off any which way in the second (F2) generation, resulting in an 'imbalance' if you will of genes and traits from each breed. That's why Labradoodles/Goldendoodles etc are still made from Poodle/Lab or Golden crosses and not generations of Labra/Goldendoodles- your F2 Labradoodle may well shed as heavily and aggravate your allergies as badly as any Lab. Den. Blue Twinkles (Betty Goto x canaliculatum) seem quite consistent from the ones I've seen, and if I buy one I expect certain traits- compact grower, small blue/purple antelope type fowers,, etc. A selfed or sib crossed 'Blue Twinkle' may not show those traits- it may have the yellow/green of canaliculatum instead of blue, it may be larger and more intermediate in type like Betty Goto, and so on. This is why I asked- it doesn't feel right to give the F2 the same designation as the F1, sort of like false advertising.

Ouch. So the moral of the story is don't use unregistered crosses in your own breeding unless you have the time and money to try and chase down the originator of the unnamed cross- for however many generations the crosses have been unnamed. I believe I saw a post here (by Amey) that if a goodwill effort is made and can be shown that you attempted to track down the crosses originator and either couldn't locate them or couldn't get a response from them, you could register that cross yourself?