Cattleya breeding

[Chris in Hamilton]

I have a Cattleya araguaiensis that was gifted to Mario Ferrusi from Alan Koch. The Shinfong Little Sun flowers are still fresh looking although I did take Kirk's advice and pollinate both ways. I'll have to try that if I can get the Dendrobiums to flower at the same time. Can't hurt!

[PaphMadMan]

Alan Koch, who does a lot of breeding, once told me that, with flowers of wildly disparate size, often, the pollen of the smaller flower will not grow pollen tubes sufficiently long to reach the ovary.

I was of the impression that the phenomenon was a direct, genetic effect, sort-of like short parent typically having short kids. However, apparently some of that is simply a case of running out of resources to keep growing at a sustained rate. Some recent studies have shown that Kelpak (sold as KelpMax in North America) stimulates pollen tube growth, so maybe applying it to plants at the time of pollination (or a little before?) might help with that.

It is true that the pollen tubes from a small species may not grow long enough to reach the ovary in a large species. It is probably both a pre-programmed length issue and a not enough onboard resources issue at various times. C. cernua pollen on C. labiata flower would be a possible example. The difference in flower size here is probably not enough to be a major problem, and since the smaller parent has larger ancestors as well it is hard to predict what the pollen is capable of. It isn't necessarily directly in proportion to flower size in a complex hybrid.

There probably are cases where a hormone or nutrient boost could make a difference.

[raybark]

There probably are cases where a hormone or nutrient boost could make a difference.

Unfortunately, in many subject areas like this, almost all of the research is on food crops, and rarely - if ever - on orchids, and most of us don't have the wherewithal to do any reasonably scientific testing.

[Chris in Hamilton]

Unfortunately, in many subject areas like this, almost all of the research is on food crops, and rarely - if ever - on orchids, and most of us don't have the wherewithal to do any reasonably scientific testing.

When I worked in the greenhouses many years ago experiments were conducted with a minimum of 100 plants for each with or without this or that. We could have as many as 1,000 plants involved in an experiment.

---------- Post Merged at 02:52 PM ----------

It is true that the pollen tubes from a small species may not grow long enough to reach the ovary in a large species. It is probably both a pre-programmed length issue and a not enough onboard resources issue at various times. C. cernua pollen on C. labiata flower would be a possible example. The difference in flower size here is probably not enough to be a major problem, and since the smaller parent has larger ancestors as well it is hard to predict what the pollen is capable of. It isn't necessarily directly in proportion to flower size in a complex hybrid.

There probably are cases where a hormone or nutrient boost could make a difference.

And it can't hurt

[raybark]

When I was experimenting with my own version of a synthetic rooting hormone concoction, I used 150 each of a phalaenopsis and an oncidium hybrid, split into three "as-close-to-identical-as-I-could-eyeball" groups. Later, when I was experimenting with trying to overwater phals in semi-hydroponics, I used 100 in each of two sets.

In both cases, there were observable differences, but I'd still be hard-pressed to say they were statistically sound analyses.

[Azizan]

Alan Koch, who does a lot of breeding, once told me that, with flowers of wildly disparate size, often, the pollen of the smaller flower will not grow pollen tubes sufficiently long to reach the ovary.

I was of the impression that the phenomenon was a direct, genetic effect, sort-of like short parent typically having short kids. However, apparently some of that is simply a case of running out of resources to keep growing at a sustained rate. Some recent studies have shown that Kelpak (sold as KelpMax in North America) stimulates pollen tube growth, so maybe applying it to plants at the time of pollination (or a little before?) might help with that.

About the pollen of small flower... it may not be entirely true. There are some hybrids example that pollen of small flower used to pollinate bigger flower. Example: Vandaenopsis Memoria Hugo Peiris (Vanda suavis (pod) x Phalaenopsis parishii (pollen)) and Vandaenopsis Kdares Sunrise Light (Phalaenopsis Ruey Lih Beauty (pod) x Vanda vietnamica (pollen)). Though it is widely assumed that pollen of small flower may not be able to reach the ovary. There are 50-50 chances, we will never know unless we try.

[PaphMadMan]

About the pollen of small flower... it may not be entirely true. There are some hybrids example that pollen of small flower used to pollinate bigger flower. Example: Vandaenopsis Memoria Hugo Peiris (Vanda suavis (pod) x Phalaenopsis parishii (pollen)) and Vandaenopsis Kdares Sunrise Light (Phalaenopsis Ruey Lih Beauty (pod) x Vanda vietnamica (pollen)). Though it is widely assumed that pollen of small flower may not be able to reach the ovary. There are 50-50 chances, we will never know unless we try.

It certainly isn't absolute, and the relevant measurement here is the length of the column from stigma to ovary. In the example I used - C. cernua pollen on C. labiata pod - the size difference is at least 10 fold. There may also be cases where pollen tubes of a large species are physically too big to get where they need to go on a small delicate flower. Either way it shouldn't be a reason not to try.

[Chris in Hamilton]

I believe I was successful with Haw Yuan Gold as the pod parent. Not so the other way. Anything I should or should not re water, fertilizer or anything else?

[PaphMadMan]

So far so good. Nothing special needed, just continue normal good care.

[Chris in Hamilton]

Thanks Kirk. How long do you think this will take to ripen to the point where something might be viable?