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Thread: are cypripedioideae intergenerics an thing? can they exist?

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  1. #1
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    Default are cypripedioideae intergenerics an thing? can they exist?

    hey guys, I was wondering if it is possible to create any intergenerics with the subfamily cypripedioideae, specifically between phragmipediums and paphiopedilums. maybe between phrag caudatum and paph sanderianum or dianthum? or maybe paph primulinum and phrag besseae? mexipedium xerophyticum and phrag kovachii? cypripedium subtropicum and selenipedium aequinoctiale? any thoughts orchid peeps?

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    Ray Barkalow
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    There are supposed to be a few registered phragmipaphiums, but some question the validity.

    Being from the same family does not mean the plants will be genetically compatible. They may not have the same number of genes, for example.

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    I would need cold hard evidence even if they are already been registered. Just like Ray said, if you want to know it is compatible, the first step is you should google the number of chromosomes of the species pair you are interested to cross with is the same. Even if the number of chromosome is the same for both, for example Vanda is 38 and Dendrobium is also 38, you will not get anything from the cross since they are not from the same family. And it doesn't just stop there. In fact it is much more complicated as many factors are involved.

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    I think it is more complicated than mere numbers of genes or chromosomes. In fact different species in one genera - paphs- have quite different chromosome numbers' varying ( from memory) between about 27 and 60. Incidentally, that number is relatively easy to count in paphs, so I am told, because their chromosomes are quite big. A magnification of x600, which I understand to be feasible with a good quality 'proper' student microscope ( not the sort of cheap toy sold under such names ) is sufficient . ( and I have to say also that it is many years since my eyes have been good enough to make microscopy possible , which could grieve me seeiously... ). And those paphs seem to interbreed relatively easily despite the difference.. I am not up to speed with paphs - imy collection was the UK National Collection for twenty years, but I have not grown yheem seriously for getting on for 14 years now.
    But the chat, way back then, was that no intergenetic hybrid in the slippers had been registered since the Registrar started a policy of asking for evidence, instead of merely registering whatever was put on the registration form.

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    Very true fact! I agree.

  6. #6
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    Not all Paphs interbreed EASILY, and there may be some fertility issues in the hybrids, but it is generally recognized that they all probably can be crossed. Chromosome number is not always a good indication if species can be crossed. Completely unrelated species could incidentally have the same chromosome number, and there are cases where different chromosome numbers have been documented within a species. it is rarely a simple question, especially in orchids.

    Not counting a few unnamed hybrids from 1899, there are 8 registered Phramipaphium (Phragmipedium x Paphiopedilum) hybrids. They date from 1912 to several from one breeder in 2002-2004. I've seen pictures of some of the alleged hybrids, but none have been completely convincing at least to me. You may find some with an image search. The most reliable information I've heard, based on my personal knowledge of the source, is that sometimes there is germination but seedlings do not live long even in flask. If these plants do exist I would assume someone would widely distribute the pictures and documentation, rather than keep them nearly secret.

    Now, if someone was serious about producing intergeneric hybrids in the Cypripedioideae just to prove it could be done, I would suggest trying Selenipedium x Cypripedium.

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