Orchid Care OrchidTalk Orchid Forum Links Nursery

Welcome to OrchidTalk Orchid Forums


The Friendliest Orchid Community on the Internet!


  •  » Learn to Repot your Orchids
  •  » Learn Orchid Care Tips and Secrets
  •  » Find the perfect Orchid for your Growing Environment
  •  » Chat with Orchid Growing Professionals

OrchidTalk - "Bringing People Together to Grow Orchids Better!"


Let us help you grow your Orchids better; Join our community today.


YES! I want to register an account for free right now!


Register or Login now to remove this advertisement.

Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Flower shape. Which parent is more important? Is one?

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    Real Name
    Robb
    My Grow Area
    Under Lights
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleyas!
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    873

    Default Flower shape. Which parent is more important? Is one?

    Hey guys. Listen, I know there are a lot of variables involved so you could never say with any certainty, but is there a probability (even if slight) of one parent being a little more dominant for flower shape? I've been buying some seedling crosses to grow out just so I'm able to observe differences in plant and flower habit and maybe even get an exceptional plant to take to a show one day. This kind of thing never interested me before as what home grower would want to give up bench space to a bunch of the same plant? LOL Now, I'm completely fascinated. It started when I looked through SO many old flower photo posts here and started getting just a superficial feel for some lineages and what they bring to the table genetically. Also, it's just plain fun to have some surprises. The most important attribute attribute to me after vigor is flower shape. For me, an attractive flower form trumps other things like color and scent. I'm guessing you'd have to be able to look at the lineage all the way back and have the ability to make an informed decision based on all the many variables involved, but I thought it was worth a shot. I'm looking at some hybrids that have been crossed both ways. One of the parents has a shape that I really love, and it's available as either the pod parent or the pollen parent. Which would you choose? Could you choose?

  2. #2
    My Grow Area
    Outside 24/7
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Vandeae tribe orchids
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    1,226
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    Normally for primary hybrids, I would observe if the flower exhibit the characteristics of both parents in terms of shape, colour and fragrance. For example, my Van. Kedah Bella here> http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchid...dah-bella.html the shape looks like a Rhyncostylis coelestis but yellow in colour. In other words, Vanda vietnamica is dominant in colour. It also inherited the fragrance of Rhyncostylis coelestis. The leaves are slightly bigger than Vanda vietnamica. However, I would be happier if the lip colour to be intense pink/purple instead as there are a lot of photos on the internet look like that (just my personal preference for colour).

    Another example, I used to have a Rhyncostylis coelestis X Vanda (Neo.) falcata, which has the big, purplish lip just like Rhyncostylis coelestis. However, it was so slow growing. Normally, Vanda falcata would be dominant in this cross but with improved size of petal and plant but with coloured, narrow lip. Rhyncostylis coelestis made the spur to be shorter.

    It is easy to assess this on primary hybrids but would be much more difficult for complex hybrid as the genes are all mixed up.

    The answer is yes, you could choose if you can observe the flower of a hybrid and its inverse and it depends on personal preferences. For me I would go for the one that express both side of parents more equally. I definitely 100% will not go for any hybrids that the flower exactly looked like only one of the parent. If I want to buy, it doesn't matter for me whether the plant is (A X B) or (B X A) as long as the flower fit my criteria. But of course I would need to consider the vigor as well while choosing, not solely on pretty flowers that meet my criteria.
    Last edited by Azizan; May 21st, 2018 at 10:33 PM. Reason: wrong spelling

  3. #3
    Real Name
    Robb
    My Grow Area
    Under Lights
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleyas!
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    873

    Default

    Unfortunately these are unbloomed new seedling crosses so Iím not sure what the flowers will look like at this point. Great pointers though. I could take the time to try and find photos of the ancestors going back a while. It might give me more insight.
    Posted via Mobile Device

  4. #4
    My Grow Area
    Outside 24/7
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Vandeae tribe orchids
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    1,226
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    With unbloomed, new cross seedlings, one can only guess and hope how the flowers will look like. Even if you know the ancestors, sometimes in multiple generation hybrids you could get unexpected results due to the genetics in play.

  5. #5
    Real Name
    Ray Barkalow
    My Grow Area
    Porch/Patio.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Island NC
    Posts
    1,900

    Default

    There are some characteristics that come predominantly from mitochondrial DNA, which in orchids and people, comes from the "mother" ("pod" parent), but I cannot remember what those are.

  6. #6
    My Grow Area
    Outside 24/7
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Vandeae tribe orchids
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    1,226
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    Mitochondrial DNA and chloroplast DNA are inherited from maternal side of a cross. Mitochondria DNA mostly responsible for the function of mitochondria, while chloroplast DNA mostly responsible for function of chloroplast. So, these DNA are related to the plant growth. I am not sure how these two (mitochondrial DNA and chloroplast DNA) related/contributed to the shape of the flower.

    Coming back to "One of the parents has a shape that I really love", if you could figure out whether the shape is dominant or recessive in nature, you could at least make an educated guess. This picture is an example of how I observe the physical traits:

    Some pictures are from the internet.
    Name:  hybrids.jpg
Views: 82
Size:  73.0 KB

    In first and second hybrids in picture, you can see that V. vietnamica lip is non-dominant. Both parents for third hybrids have rather similar shape of lip but V. vietnamica has more frilly lip, hence, the offspring inherited that. But if both parents have distinctly different shape from each other, the resulting offspring will be intermediate of the parents. This is how I make an educated guess whether a trait is dominant or recessive in a cross, from observations after few years of growing orchids (only in Vanda though). Hope this will give you some ideas.

  7. #7
    My Grow Area
    Outside 24/7
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Vanda
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    682
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    I think it would vary with different types of orchids. I had a friend who was a breeder of miniature cattleyas, and what I noticed was that the male seemed to have slightly greater influence on the progeny. This does not necessarily translate of oncids, vandas, dens, etc. Also, with some types, there are some parents that dominate no matter what, this would only be noticed with lots of experience.

  8. #8
    Real Name
    Kirk
    My Grow Area
    Under Lights
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Paphiopedilum
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,517
    Member's Country Flag

    Default

    A couple points worth mentioning...

    If the parents you are looking at are hybrids themselves, especially complex hybrids, there is a lot of hidden variability that can come as a complete surprise in the offspring. Look at the ancestry of each parent and if there is some species in the background of both parents in a significant percentage, that may be the best indication of flower shape to expect, rather than the shape of either parent.

    There are cases of certain flower shapes being more dominant no matter which side of the family they come from, but that depends on the genetics of that trait. The only way to know is to look at similar crosses and see what you see.

    Mitochondrial and chloroplast DNA from the mother line can have a bigger effect on overall vigor, temperature and light preferences, green or yellow color distribution, but not usually on flower shape.

    If you care to mention the specific cross you are looking at I might have a guess for you if it is a type of breeding line I'm familiar with.

  9. #9
    Real Name
    Robb
    My Grow Area
    Under Lights
    Favorite Orchid(s)
    Cattleyas!
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    873

    Default

    Hey thanks a lot Kirk. It's cool though. I was going to get four of this cross. I just decided to get two crossed one way and two the other way. Actually I decided on something completely different but also crossed both ways. Cattleya Katherine Clarkson 'SVO' HCC/AOS has an overall shape I really like and Cattlianthe Mem. Evelyn Paquette 'SVO' has a great lip. Already placed the order. Hopefully I will end up with a nice clone out of the bunch. If not, it's all a learning experience.

Similar Threads

  1. Rhychovanda sri parent name
    By letranthienkim in forum New Growers: Ask the Senior Members
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: April 19th, 2012, 10:51 PM
  2. Important Forum Changes!
    By LJA in forum Using the Boards
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: August 16th, 2005, 02:21 PM
  3. **IMPORTANT** We've had to switch servers
    By LJA in forum Using the Boards
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 27th, 2004, 10:53 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
OrchidTalk --An Orchid Growers Discussion Forum brought to you by River Valley Orchidworks. A World Community where orchid beginners and experts talk about orchids and share tips on their care, cultivation, and propagation.