Dive in....

[Ennui]

...and the increasing prevelance of 3 and 4n parents and offspring poses some questions for the judging community...how does ploidy figure into the standards by which one judges a flower?

What you said, catfan, has me thinking about
the reproductive aspect of flowers.
The judge evaluates the aesthetic value of a flower,
but not the reproductive.
it seems counterintuitive that the main reason for a flower is not
weighed in the evaluation of a flower's "flowerness."
I especially find it odd that many 3n's are sterile,
and are flowerly in appearance only,
and not function.
it doesn't seem fair that awards go to a flower incapable of passing on those
valued traits.
Correct me if anyone knows for sure,
but I think in AKC dog shows for conformation & stuff,
the dogs may not be altered,
so the winners are able to pass on their genetics.
I guess it's just too hard for a judge to know if a plant
has been neutered of not.

[Diane]

Correct me if anyone knows for sure,
but I think in AKC dog shows for conformation & stuff,
the dogs may not be altered,
so the winners are able to pass on their genetics.
I guess it's just to hard for a judge to know if a plant
has been neutered of not.

You are absolutely right about judging dogs (and cats). They must be "intact" in terms of reproductive ability. Although they do have separate shows for neutered animals that offer lesser awards.

As for 2N, 3N and 4N.... I'm clueless and prefer to remain that way, so I continue to buy what I like, no matter how many Ns.... (I'm not planning on doing any breeding either...)

[Jmoney]

polyploid plants often have thicker and larger leaves than the regular diploid forms. intuitively that makes biological sense because if you figure that the extra chromosomes code for at least some structural protein, each individual polyploid cell stands to be larger than a diploid cell. don't know if that's been proven, but it's often given as a reason behind the overall larger plants.

sometimes people will say they may have "wrinkled" leaves, meaning longitudinal wrinkles along the leaf surface. many other things can cause this too.

bottom line as far as I'm concerned, it would be difficult to tell plants apart since there tends to be a great deal of natural variation in most crosses. maybe side by side, in a cross that was colchicine-treated, you might have an educated guess at which ones were successfully converted.

[catfan]

I'm going to a judging center tomorrow for a monthly judging, and I will print out this thread and take it with me. I know that this subject has been brought up before, and we are supposed to discuss it. I'll let you know what they say...

[LJA]

catfan, definitely post back--I'm really interested to hear what they say.

Hybridizers have been doing this for quite a while now, but I'm really noticing it with Phrags over the past few years: crossing a tetraploid parent with a diploid one to deliberately produce a triploid mule. The idea is to prevent anyone who buys the offspring from using that cross as a stud plant. The same crosses are also made using both diploid or tetraploid parents, whose progeny are either sold at incredibly increased prices, or kept for the hybridizer's own use. This practice effectively "copyrights" the offspring for the short term, though, of course, it doesn't prevent anyone else from making the same cross themselves if they can get hold of two 2n or 4n parents.

Ennui, you've made a really good point, I think. But without cheaply available DNA testing, how are we to really tell for sure (and judge accordingly) whether a flower is "whole?" Plus, there's a pragmatic issue as well in that AOS judging, even as it stands now, takes boatloads of time. Can we expect judges at shows, already under serious time constraints, to take even more of it doing a DNA test on possible contenders for a quality award?

[JB_Orchidguy]

LJA there is a quick fix for that problem. Now this would provide that the DNA testing prices are resonable. All they have to do is judge normaly, and if the plant recieves the award then test it. They are given the award pending the test results. If things come back hunkydory then the award stands if not then its revoked. They do the same thing in Nascar for the Datona 500. The winning car is given the trophey and all the celbrating is done, but the car is dismantled and tested to make sure everything is par and ok and not breaking any rules. If the car is found to be illegaly altered then the win is revoked and the second place winner wins. The car is also inpounded for the season so it can be displayed in Datona's museam(sp) for the season. IN fact I think they test every winner of ever race, but the only one that keeps the car for the year is the Datona 500.

[catfan]

I did not get a good answer at the judging center this weekend in re flowers, ploidy, and judging. Just didn't have time to pursue it. I did have my interview for being accepted as a student judge, (I was accepted,)...and I got my first ever AOS award...86 point CCM for my Epi. russeauae 'Jerry Foster' ...

http://www.orchidspecies.com/epirusseauae.htm

It had never been awarded before...I'll try to get some more answers on the ploidy topic soon-

c.

[Diane]

II did have my interview for being accepted as a student judge, (I was accepted,)...and I got my first ever AOS award...86 point CCM for my Epi. russeauae 'Jerry Foster' ...

http://www.orchidspecies.com/epirusseauae.htm

It had never been awarded before...I'll try to get some more answers on the ploidy topic soon-

c.

Double Congratulations!!

[Jmoney]

catfan, definitely post back--I'm really interested to hear what they say.

Hybridizers have been doing this for quite a while now, but I'm really noticing it with Phrags over the past few years: crossing a tetraploid parent with a diploid one to deliberately produce a triploid mule. The idea is to prevent anyone who buys the offspring from using that cross as a stud plant. The same crosses are also made using both diploid or tetraploid parents, whose progeny are either sold at incredibly increased prices, or kept for the hybridizer's own use. This practice effectively "copyrights" the offspring for the short term, though, of course, it doesn't prevent anyone else from making the same cross themselves if they can get hold of two 2n or 4n parents.

Ennui, you've made a really good point, I think. But without cheaply available DNA testing, how are we to really tell for sure (and judge accordingly) whether a flower is "whole?" Plus, there's a pragmatic issue as well in that AOS judging, even as it stands now, takes boatloads of time. Can we expect judges at shows, already under serious time constraints, to take even more of it doing a DNA test on possible contenders for a quality award?

There is another reason to have 3N progeny, as triploids are often fast-growing, as opposed to the often slow-growing tetraploids (these are of course generalizations). In the phrag world, many of the actual tetraploids these days are plagued by ragged petal edges, some of which may stem from the oft-used tetraploid Eric Young 'Rocket Fire'. These 4N plants may still be useful for breeding, but they are obviously challenged when it comes to exhibition.

diploids are often impossible to come across with advanced phrag breeding--that was the problem that plagued hybrids of yesteryear, the genetic dead-end after a couple of generations. this was only overcome by the ploidy work pioneered by the late Don Wimber of the EYOF, which is why most "complex" phrag hybrids will be 3N or 4N.

http://www.flasksbychuckacker.com/im...ricYoung4N.htm