For those interested in Habenaria rhodocheila

[LJA]

Rob, the whole thing is really a grey area, and some would accuse me of stifling the free-flowing exchange of ideas because of our policy. I disagree.

What you're bringing up about nurseries that don't sell orchids can similarly be applied to orchid vendors who don't sell the same genera of orchids we do, can then be further refined into orchid vendors who sell the same genera but not the same clones, can be honed down to maybe the same clones but not the same sizes, etc.. So, rather than getting into all of that, the policy remains that no advertising for any commercial vendors of anything--can openers, awnings, pumpkins, anything--is allowed.

Several members who have been here since very early on (uncasteeb, for instance) have gotten along just fine and contributed immensely without making the first mention of any vendor whatsoever, so doing that is completely possible without sacrificing anything in terms of valuable content. Instead of saying "Got this today from VendorX!" you just have to say, "Got this today! Isn't it fantastic?" If someone wants to know from where, he or she can PM.

Finally, context will determine what constitutes education and what constitutes advertising, and Bruce and I have the final say. Some people, thinking to be very clever, have tried to disguise one for the other, and that won't fly either. If questions about cultural recommendations come up whose answers can only be found on websites for commercial sources, those answers are easy enough to paraphrase. If someone wants page and reference, use PM.

There is really no difficulty here that can't easily be worked around.

[mde]

Also glad to see this is being discussed. I've even been surprised to see places like the big box stores mentioned by name so often (which ironically is how I first found this site when doing a google search for a gift orchid that I had assumed came from a box store...I typed in the orchid's name and the link that came up from this site, if I recall, mentioned the store by name if not at the time, somewhere later in the thread). I just assumed since I saw it mentioned so often, it was a non-compete sort of thing and RVO was o.k. with it. Of course usually the box stores come across in negative terms...rotting, bud blast, NOID labeling, etc. so I don't know that this is really favorable advertising!

Matt

[LJA]

As far as I'm concerned, it's just as inappropriate to post negative advertising about commercial enterprises as it is to post positive. And so far, the majority of people who have had bad experiences with a particular vendor have been very careful to ask for advice about what to do, but *not* mention the vendor by name. With big chain sellers, they would even go so far as to say things like, "one of *those* stores" rather than name the company.

As far as those big box stores are concerned though, if you do a search on here, you'll find just as many, if not more, positive or neutral comments about them as you'll find negative. And if you search through the pic forums, you'll find tons of posts that start off, "Just got this after a trip out to vendor-X. I love the etc. etc. about it." Or, "This is one of vendor-Y's crosses, been growing it for years, etc etc."

My point is, I've never edited or deleted any posts that gave vendors no more than a happenstance, casual mention because I thought that doing so would be highly ludicrous. And I allowed links to cultural information on commercial websites precisely because education was the honest intention of the post. Even so, many members with prolific content here have had absolutely no problem saying what they needed to say without ever having to bring up the first commercial seller at all. They got their enthusiasm or whatever emotion they were feeling across without ever having to mention, "You can buy this plant from So-and-So's Orchids. Here's mine."

It's completely do-able.

The only times I have ever come down on people for mentioning vendors has been when, as in the first post of this thread, the message clearly had no intention other than to advertise: "So-and-so is having a sale! Going out of business! Half price on everything!" Or, "I want to buy some new plants! Tell me who's good! Give me some links!" Or, "This is the third microscopic piece of shit I've been sent from Vendor-X; I will NEVER buy from them again." All of those--positive advertising, solicitation for advertising, and negative advertising--clearly inappropriate.

That's where I used to draw the line up until now, and it seemed to me that the understanding of its location was very clear.

Unfortunately this was not the case. Therefore, in order to be fair to everyone, so it doesn't look as though I'm playing favorites, or allowing some to mention but not others, or allowing others to mention as long as we don't sell whatever it is they're mentioning, all of that an administrative, hair splitting nightmare to try and enforce, the policy now is: no advertising of commercial enterprises whatsoever in public forum. If you want to know where something was got or where you can git it, you have to go to PM. If you publicly say where something was got or where you can git it, if I find it, I'll edit it out.

For an explanation and summary of all the forum rules, including this one, I urge everybody to read the top page of the FAQs.

To review the formal stipulations to which all members have agreed and must agree prior to registering, you should check out the OrchidTalk Terms and Conditions.

I seriously don't think any of this can get much clearer, but if there's something that's really still fuzzy to someone, please post back.

[Jmoney]

I'm saddened to see that it has come to this.

I personally thought it was common knowledge that blatant shameless advertising was not allowed here, as anyone who has frequented this forum for any substantial amount of time would have known from previous posts. Say what you will about censorship, but I for one am not contributing to this forum financially and I would never post anything tantamount to an advertisement for someone else. That's just f____'ing absurd.

That said, on numerous occasions people have mentioned vendors *in passing*, often in regard to photos or whatever. I must have as well, at some point. I was not aware of it being a problem, nor have I myself seen much of the "gray area". It seems that it's either an innocuous post or it's something blatant. It's too bad one blatant post is leading to a ban on the innocuous ones. Maybe you oughta just ban the advertisers and let the rest of us carry out our business?

[prem]

well, if this is the desire of the members of this forum that I leave, I will certainly abide by their decision.

As I stated before, I DID NOT INTEND TO VIOLATE ANY RULES OF THIS FORUM, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THAT SAID RULES WERE NOT CLEARLY SPELLED OUT IN ANY FASHION THAT A REGULAR USER OF THIS FORUM COULD LOCATE..

So, crucify me if you want to...I am clear in my conscience. I had no intention to steal or redirect a penny of Louis's business elsewhere. In fact, as the webmaster of the Tallahassee Orchid Society, I had given this forum a place in our links section, so there may actually be business that has come this way as a result of my efforts..maybe not, but I think it would be clear from this fact that I was not trying to undermine RVO's business or its policies.

---Prem

[TundraKev]

To my knowledge no one is asking anyone to leave. All that's happening right now is an exchange of thoughts and some venting. No votes have been taken in secret or anything strange like that.

Prem it may seem like you are the target right now, but that's not really true. I think part of the problem is that very few people seem to know anything about you. You post pictures, but that's about it. It's difficult for people to know what your intentions may or may not have been. Just a thought. I may be way off base.

I've found this whole thread very useful. I think I may have violated the rules in some of my Plant Club posts. I won't anymore now that I am perfectly clear on what is OK and what is not. It all makes sense to me now.

[LJA]

Gosh--ok.

I thought this was done.

Here's the deal: first off, anyone leaving or staying is their own decision, unless they're actually banned, in which case it's mine. There's no "group consensus" about this, therefore no witch hunt, no "crucifictions," so we can nip that in the bud right there.

Secondly, I've really already made up my mind about how to handle advertising posts, and it's all laid out now where anyone can see the actions that are going to be taken if I come across them, so that shouldn't be an issue any more either.

The problem with continuing as I have before is this: there is just no way to adequately define what differentiates innocuous, "in passing" advertising from blatant, intentional advertising. The fact of the matter is, any statement whatsoever about a commercial vendor other than "Vendor-X does not exist" can be construed as some form of advertising--any statement at all. And I don't have the time or willingness to get into debates when vendors are mentioned over "which particular mention constituted the greater form of advertising, this one, or that one;" over "which post should be permitted because it was innocuous, which should be deleted because it was more blatant." We can argue those kinds of things till we're blue in the face and never resolve them. So I'm not getting into it--I don't have the time to carve steps into the slippery slope.

I also have a business reason to not permit discussion about other vendors, namely, because we do business with them. The very *last* thing I need is for an ongoing business relationship or potential relationship with another vendor to be threatened because that vendor came across some posts on this forum that didn't put them in the best of all possible lights. It wouldn't matter that I didn't write the posts myself; the very fact that I allowed their continued existence would be enough to potentially undermine any possible business dealings, and I can't let that happen.

So there it all is.

Folks, *please* don't mention commercial establishments in your public posts. I don't want to be put into a position of having to constantly edit, delete, play cop. Please.

Prem, I appreciate the link. I don't know if any business has come our way or not because of it, but you certainly didn't have to put it up, and I appreciate that you did. Hopefully this advertising business should all be clear now. I know that I've learned quite a bit from the material you've posted on here--you've shown me plants that I never knew existed and you've opened the world of orchid species and their culture to many people on this board--I'm one of them. I was very surprised that you posted the ad in this thread, but you've certainly apologized, and in doing so, you pointed out an oversight on my part regarding accessibility of rules information that I really needed to fix. I think it's fixed now; would you agree?

So, unless someone has anything more they want to add here, I think we can put this one to bed. The policy and the reasoning behind it has been made clear, and I'm going to be enforcing it according to the Forum Rules and Guidelines that have been set out in the FAQs.

Are we all cool now? There should be no more confusion.

[Orchidzrule]

Are we all cool now? There should be no more confusion.

Totally cool! I love this forum. I totally appreciate your point about it being tough to know where to draw the line and differentiate innocuous, "in passing" advertising from blatant, intentional advertising. I fully support all your arguments. I think I've been guilty of mentioning peripheral (to orchids) commercial enterprises on occasion. For that, I apologize and will promise it won't happen again! I didn't read the guidelines properly and feel badly about that.

Prem, I really hope you do not leave us. I enjoy your input and want it to continue.

I'll close here and go back to reading all the great items posted on this forum!

Cheers,

Rob

[david]

that is such an awsome flower. wow . hope my wife gives me premission to buy one. cool